So, the unthinkable finally happened, and I desperately need advice as to what to do.  My male GSP, Kaido has shown some prey drive tendencies at the dog park 2 or 3 times, out of the gazillion times we've gone over the last 6 months. The last time we went, he made a baby bunny kill, and since then, he has killed a baby kitten that somehow landed in our backyard. Because of this mishap, I posted my concern to this forum, and received EXCELLENT feedback, everything from, "this is normal" to "predatory drift."  Because of this, we made the responsible choice NOT to return to the dog park, or anywhere Kaido might come in contact with a small dog and cause harm.  The other day, I left all 3 of our dogs outside to play. They LOVE to run and play chase together, and our smaller 35 pound Aussie/Brittany mix who RUNS the pack, has ALWAYS been in charge of the chase.  She tells them when they are coming too close to her, etc.  They always listen.  Well, I was inside cleaning the shower, and did not hear Jamie's screams. By the time I heard her and made it outside, Kaido was mauling her.  Poor Jamie has about 10 puncture wounds, and 2 or 3 open gashes to her back and hind quarters, and one small one to her neck.   Evidently, this chase game turned into predatory drift.  I am very careful not to leave any toys outside that they can fight over.  They only have each other.  There would have been no reason for a fight.  I think Kaido got too close, Jaimie yelped, and the predatory drift set in.  My breeder and my vet tell me that this may never happen again, or it could escalate.  Both reccommended either putting him to sleep or giving him to someone else, or putting him through intense obedience training.  Kaido did acknowledge me when I went outside, and stopped what he was doing when I told him to, and then went in for one more bite before I got to Jaime.  He immediately placed himself into a down position when I got close to he and Jamie.   I don't believe this was dog vs dog aggression, however, I KNOW Kaido would have killed her had I not come into the picture.  Maybrie was NOT a part of it at all which REALLY surprised me, as the two of them are always together and have a "pack" mentality.  Maybrie knew it was no longer a game and did not participate.   Jamie is terrified to go outside, and will not go near Kaido.   She kisses on Maybrie, though she is still too sore to really move around.  This incident happened yesterday at 2:30pm, and she just went outside to go potty, more than 24 hours later.  I had to take her in the front yard, because she will not set foot in the backyard.   My biggest fear is that she will no longer trust again.  She follows me and will not leave my side unless she is in our bedroom away from the other dogs.  I let her down when I wasn't there to protect her.

What is the general concensus?   Kaido is normally my big softy.  He is so sweet.  Out of the two, he is more of a lap dog, but he knows we are the pack leaders.   We follow the pack leader mentality 100% of the time.  They do not share our bed, and they do not get on the couch anymore.   They do not dart out the back door, and they have to have permission to eat, go outside, come in for a cuddle, etc.   We raised two very well trained labs, and I have NEVER seen anything like this.  His behavior is SO unpredictable.  He could have 100 visits to the dog park with a gazillion little dogs running around and not acknowledge one of them.  Then randomly, out of the blue, he will spot one he thinks he wants to play with.    Jamie LOVES Kaido, and in fact,  would ONLY play chase with him.  She will run up to him and try to get him to chase her in the house, in the back yard, etc.  He has been nothing but the most gentle giant you have ever seen.....until he gets the prey drive going, but he has NEVER exhibited prey drive towards Jamie, not even close.    Hence, predatory drift...that single, most unpredictable thing, that can happen between dogs that have lived happily ever after for YEARS.  So, has anyone ever dealt personally with this?   Can I safely rehabilitate Kaido?    I want to use the e-collar to zap him when he doesn't come when called, or when they try to play chase in the backyard.  I have to stop that chase game.  I feel like I have sort of been allowing them to practice for the "kill."   Though many dogs play fight and have no problems, for Kaido, it has become a problem, and he is becoming more and more confident.  When we first got him, he was SO submissive to any other dog that approached him.....large dog, that is. He has always been overly curious with the small ones.   I have already had him evaluated by the breeder, (the day before this incident), and he is definitely at the intermediate level, a little above, actually, as he can "here" and "leave it" pretty regularly off leash without e-collar.  I trained him on my own to that level.  I am enrolled in classes Nov. 6th, that will teach me how to appropriately use the e-collar.  According to my breeder, if I had shocked Kaido during the prey drive, he would have killed Jaimie.  I have seen it used successfully though, and Kaido is soft enough, I think it might work for him as well.   My breeder said that both my pups are ready for the e-collar, as they both fully understand, without a doubt, all the commands.  She says they implement the e-collar during the intermediate stages when they are still on the leash to ensure that the pups understand the meaning of the collar, and that they can release that pressure by obeying.   I really think Kaido can learn, and I know I can keep Jamie away from Kaido.    What do I do?  He is too good to throw away, and I can't see him living with anyone else.  I really think that with the proper training, I can keep him....am I being unrealistic?   My breeder says she can help, and her husband is a behavior specialist, however, they use some pretty tough tactics to make Kaido fear the chase.  I'm not sure I'm okay with that, as he is already such a big chicken and has such a soft temperament.  Even the breeder was super shocked given his temperament that something like this could occur with him.   I am kicking myself for not being out there. This  never would have NEVER happened.  I also wish I had known predatory drift could happen to your own family dogs.  I guess I didn't read that thoroughly.  I was only thinking "dog park" and "small dogs."   Jamie is medium size.   I should have been more educated, and the fault, once again, lies with the owner, not the dog.   I really, really want to help Kaido.  He and his sister need to stay together.    I made the committment to Kaido when I brought him into our home.  I don't want to give up on him, but I also want to keep my other 3 dogs safe.   HELP? 

One of my best friends had the same thing happen with her one of her female dogs not getting along, biting into her other female she did not like. This female dog had a very high prey drive. She killed a cat that wandered into her fenced backyard. Also killed rabbits My friend asked advice and was told this female would have to be put down. My friend made the decision  to place this dog into the Breed Rescue with discription. Is agressive with other female dogs. Good with male dogs.Not good with cats or small dog as may see as prey. My hope for this dog is that the rescue will find a forever home with a big male dog, no cats or small dogs and fence yard......  Our Rocky has a very high prey drive. German Shorthair Rescue found us to be a perfect fit forever home for Rocky as at the time we had a large Female Chese/lab 87lbs, no cats, no small dogs . Rocky has been a part of our family for nine years. He is 10 yrs old now. Good luck with what ever decision you make. I know others will be able to offer some helpful advice. It is a very tough hard experience for you to go through. My prayers are with you.

 Thanks....Yes, in my eyes, Jamie is the one that rules, as when the pups get too rough, or out of line with each other or with her, she will intervene and correct them.  They have always honored her.........typical small dog rules thing, but again, in my eyes.

Perhaps you are correct about the pecking order thing.  Hadn't thought about it.   I honestly am guessing about what actually happened, simply based on what I have seen a couple of times with him deliberately going after small dogs, trying to roll them and illicit a yelp or chase.   I have to wonder though.  If this was seriously a prey drive, wouldn't he have killed her?  She was seriously mauled the vet called  it.  However, there were no bites to vulnerable areas, only her back and her haunches.  One very small superficial nick to her neck.   Perhaps she did something to tick him off?   The breeder also agreed that a bunny kill and a kitten kill would not make him want to kill Jamie. I am the one calling it predatory drift.  The vet and the breeder are calling it a mauling, neither can explain what took place, nor can I.  I am dumbfounded.  The breeder had Kaido for 7 months before I got him, and cannot believe he would do such a thing.  I honestly can't either, as he is super soft.    As for the e-collar to avoid the chase thing.....there is a guy named Ed farley, I think that's his name, that strongly dicourages raising 2 littermates together, and he says that by allowing these two to practice these behaviors, their pack will become so strong they are capable of killing anything.  He says they shouldn't practice this behavior until I have them trained well enough to where I can call them off of each other, and or any other thing and they come immediately.  My two do not hear, or choose not to listen when engaged in this activity.  For their safety, as well as other dogs, I just think I need to do something to get their attention back on me.  If I call "here,"  no matter what they are doing, they should respond......same with "leave it."   It's not that I want to zap them for chasing, I want to get their attention so they come back to me no matter what they are doing. That's all I meant by the e-collar thing.  I will be trained properly to use it prior to using it!!   I'm not one to just slap on a collar and zap.  I wish to use the e-collar simply to reinforce a behavior they already know.  I just have to make sure I don't make one of them think the zap came from each other, because I don't want to turn a chase into a fight.   It's a very delicate situation, I understand.....but I am afraid for Kaido to go somewhere else.  They may not understand how soft he is. 

I am encouraged by your story Marie, in which your current GSP was properly placed.  You are a good example of someone I would love to send Kaido to.  If I could make sure that it was a good home, I think I would be okay with it.  But, I really want to be his forever home.  

 jamie is 5, 

http://leerburg.com/groundwork.htm

http://www.amazon.com/Aggression-Dogs-Management-Prevention-Modification/dp/1929242204/ref=pd_sim_sbs_b_1

 smatulewicz, and to all others who have applied, THANK YOU SO MUCH, from the bottom of my heart.

Thanks.  I am not sure about the nervous behavior.  I don't excite very easily, and though I cannot say I wasn't concerned when I was chasing him around in circles to get him away from a small dog, but I handled myself calmly and assertively each time without a doubt.   I never raised my voice into a frantic scream, nor did I yell his name, in an excited manner.  I do know, and understand that they can read our energy without words ever being spoken, so perhaps my energy was speaking louder than my words!  I still don't know, as we had countless visits to the dog park with only 2 or 3 incidents. When the incidence happened with Jamie and Kaido, I was inside the house.   I truly, truly appreciate you bringing this up, as I am at such a loss, and am searching for anything that could even be a remote cause or possible cause for what occurred.  So, I truly appreciate your insight, without a doubt!   I don't discount it at all.   Kaido remains with us, and under close supervision.  Maybrie has been allowed to go outside and play with him, and there has been no sign that anything is or could go array....but they will not be left without being closely monitored.  Jamie's wounds are still open and a couple of the wounds are collecting fluid.  I am going to try warm packs to see if that will help with some reabsorption.  Otherwise, we have to go back to the vet and have drains put in.  The only 2 staples the vet put in, she managed to pull out. I am keeping the other wounds clean, and she is on antibiotics and pain meds.  I do not think she will ever be the same dog.  She is afraid to go into the living room, and afraid to go outside in the back.  I have to use a leash to get her from our bedroom to any other room in the house, or to the backyard.     I did introduce Kaido to her briefly, while standing RIGH NEXT to Jamie, and he immediately took a dominant stance and tried to tower over her.  I separated them immediately, and know for certain he would do the same think all over again if given a chance.   Jamie actually did okay with that brief meeting today.  No shaking or trying to get away, actually.  Eventually, I will take them for walks together just so they can be in the same room together with observation, but they will NEVER be allowed in the backyard together.    I begin intermediate obedience with leash, and basic e-collar training on Nov 6th.  After Christmas, we will have advanced training, off-leash.  I really think he can be trained and that I will be able to keep him.   IF someone comes along and it seems they may be a better fit for him, then I will definitely consider it, but right now, the thought of giving him up, hard break training him, or euthanizing him, .....I just can't even think about those options, even as I sit here and look at all of Jamie's wounds.   I will just have to train him very, very well, remain calm and assertive pack leader, and never leave Jamie and Kaido, or even Maybrie and Kaido unattended.   They are like children that will never grow up and will have to have constant supervision!!   I'm okay with whatever it takes!  I made a commitment to all my dogs, no matter what problems may arise.   If this turns out to be a severe aggression problem as he matures, I will have no choice but to find a home that can better manage him, and that has fewer liabilities.....other pets, and a culdesac of 8 children and their pets running outside all the time.  Above all, I MUST make sure my yard is secure.  We already have a "Beware of Dog" sign posted......that was already there!   I think I jinxed us...

 Thanks Rose, for these links!

 Texas Belle, 

Thanks, those are EXCELLENT ideas!  Thanks!

I suggest becoming Jamie.

Become the on that runs the pack, and relieve her of that position.

We had a combination of issues, leadership being one. For this, I chose to leash him to me for 14 days. No talking, eye contact, or affection was given during this time. There was some defiance from him at first, but soon a calmness washed over him, then he happily followed me around, as he realized he no longer needed to rely on his own choices. He has long forgotten this excersise, but it taught me the self-discipline & self-control( aka obedience) that I needed.

My personal weaknessess are uncertainty, indecision, worrying, and being complacent - which my dog read as insecurity, or poor leader. I had(and have to contintue) to learn to exude calm confidence in every essence of being - from how I act, speak, think, and even write.

This is only part of the bigger picture. We also had to embrace his insecurity, and tackle that with strict obedience and exposure to dogs, people, and experiences.

What I see is once they have gone there and pulled that card, it has worked for them - effectively - and they are not afraid to go there again. Things can quickly escalate into a dangerous, and liable, situation. Ask yourself if you wish to be managing this for the rest of his life. Keep in mind, he may change for better or worse over several years.

These posts have quality advice that may help you:

http://www.shorthairs.net/GSPForum/tabid/220/view/topic/postid/71638/forumid/2/tpage/1/Default.aspx

http://www.shorthairs.net/GSPForum/tabid/220/forumid/2/postid/96313/view/topic/Default.aspx (rest in peace baira)

http://www.shorthairs.net/GSPForum/tabid/220/forumid/2/tpage/1/view/Topic/postid/62714/Default.aspx

(P.S. Our other dog got attacked last week, a bone-deep gash on her forehead, she is on antibiotics as well. We chose to let the wound heal naturally. In the first few days, we did the same and used a hot towel to clean the wound daily and massage out fluid. The cone/Elizabethan collar has helped prevent her from opening up the wound and she is much better shape now, so I hope the best for you. )

Just because Kaido in your eyes is soft, does not mean that he is not capable of something like this.  I have two female GSPs, the older GSP, Maple, is constantly moving and would be one to challenge me as a younger dog so I was always on top of things.  My youngest GSP is so very sweet, very cautious and well I know know I babied her without really realizing it because she was so sweet.  Java caught me off guard on a few occasions.  Two dogs have shown their teeth in a threatening, not playful way, and wow I was taken off guard by it.  Both times they were not showing their teeth to her.  Once it was a Belgian Tervurin that play was getting out of hand with Maple and the Terv started showing her teeth and growling and another time it was a larger border collie that took after our smaller border collie.  Java went in to stop things and well I was quite surprised as she just really does not present herself that way, actually quite the opposite.  Another time my older dog Maple tried to take away Java's chew one evening, and Maple got bit on the ear and has a small little rip in it.  So now Java is crated when they get chews and is not allowed out until everyone has finished as I don't want Java to be guarding her chew and give her the opportunity to do a correction like that again.  She does not do this with her food as they are all fed together right next to each other so again I was caught off guard.

So I would not let Jaime and Kaido out in the back yard at the same time when you are not out there to watch.  I know a big hassle, but it is the only sure way for it not to happen again.  Like others have said, Jaime is not the boss and should not do the corrections.   Obedience training always improves a dogs behavior and makes them much better companions so you cannot go wrong with that.

It seems the chase escalated to something more and it has to be controlled.  Jaime probably was trying to stop Kaido from following her and Kaido was just not too happy about it.  I agree if they were already into the fight, using the ecollar during that would have just really set Kaido more into a frenzy.  You also have to be careful now if Jaime is afraid of Kaido as that will make it worse.  There was a period of time after the ear bite that the older dog Maple would not go near the younger dog and well that was a problem.  I could see in Java's behavior that she thought she was becoming the boss.  Obviously I was not doing my job as the leader.  You cannot let one dog correct the other . . . that is your job.  It is just the "sweet" ones can catch you off guard sometimes as you tend to be a little easy on them without realizing it.

What kind of dog is Jaime?  I know that certain dogs when they see our border collie, they want to chase him when he starts to run and has been jumped on by a few dogs, but never injured thankfully.   He is fast, is low to the ground when he runs and I think it is just the way he runs that excites them into the chase.

It would be a hard decision to give Kaido up, but after reading what Marie wrote . . . that would definitely be a better solution than euthanizing a dog because the chase got out of hand.  Just be honest about his behaviors because if you don't and he gets placed in a home that kills their other dog, someone who has not had him very long would certainly have him euthanized without a second thought as the attachment to him just would not be there to prevent it.

Roz

Rose, FANTASTIC idea....absolutely.  I think I just may have to try that with Jamie and Kaido.   Also thank you so much for providing those links.  I guess, though I considered myself the pack leader, apparently I haven't been.   I do like to give hugs and kisses when we first greet in the morning and I let them out of their kennels....or when we first arrive home.  

Thanks also for the tip on using the warm towl and massaging the liquid out.  Jamie has been licking, and though the swelling has dissapated some, there is still more than I would like to see.  The wound is still quite open, and her constant licking hasn't helped any.  I will have to sit the warm compresses on for a few minutes, and then do as you said, try to press the fluid, or knead the fluid out a bit.  It seems to be solidifying, and that's the last thing I want to happen.   The fluid that is coming out is clear though, and she is on antibiotics, so we are still good....but thanks for the tip: Collar, warm towels, massage.  GREAT ideas!  Yes, she has numerous deep wounds, and the vet would not suture them due to the bacteria that might be closed up inside the wound.  We do the same in the ER when animals bite humans.  We either close it very loosely, or not at all.  The vet only put two staples in, but Jamie took the liberty of pulling them out!   I had idea she could reach her haunches!  

Thanks again for all your tips and support.  It means the world to me. 

 Thanks Therozypozy.  You make some very, very valid arguments and points.  

As far as placing him in another home, or euthanizing.  I would most definitely  be 100% up front prior to placing him with another family!!   If not for their pet, for Kaido's life. As you mentioned.....(sorry, I didn't read your entire last paragraph prior to writing this!)  I know that personally I would never  have Kaido euthanized, but I don't know that another family wouldn't if he hurt or killed their animal.  If I placed him, it would be to spare his life, and also possibly the life of another animal he might mame or kill.   I am truly hoping I can keep him.  That's my goal.  I just don't think I can part with him, not after one incedent that I didn't witness, until I heard Jamie's screams.     I would also never place Kaido in a home with small children.  They would have to be upper teen, young adult, preferably single and not wanting to have children.  That's going to be near impossible to find.   I have seen him try to pounce on a small child at the dog park (that shouldn't have been there), and I intervened, because I could see it could possibly be a bad deal for the little boy.    Luckily, the little boy handled himself well, got up and kept walking.  I caught up to them by the time he got up, and redirected Kaido's attention.   If I placed Kaido, it would most definitely be placed by me, with the help of our breeder, and with a close friend, and with the STRICT contract that if ANYTHING goes poorly, or they do not like Kaido, they have to return him to US.....not to SPCA or a vet to be euthanized.    

Kaido and I both just need more training.  He is a lot of dog for me to handle, but I know I can do it if I make the committment, which I did from the moment I laid eyes on him and told him I would be his forever home. 

Thanks so much for your ideas , concerns and insight into the possibility of poor placement should I decide to go that route.  I truly appreciate your advice.  

Thanks

Yes, gently massaging the wound the first few days helped drain the fluids, we let it dry after. We are keeping the Elizabethan collar on 24/7 until it heals completely.

If I were to keep Kaido, I would have to become a stronger leader than the bond of him and Maybrie, stronger than Jamie's rule. I think being pack leader is not only about who gets what & when. It has greater meaning: making the choices for the whole pack, teaching the pack, being the protector between members of the pack, and being the protector of the home.

Now we never greet our dogs first. We completely ignore them, until they put themselves in a calm lying down position, then I call them over for a pet. I now reserve affection for when they obey a command - just a light pet on their side or shoulder. My dogs interpret the slightest gushiness, intensity, excitement, or uncertainty as weakness in leadership.

From my limited experiences, truly calm, secure dogs do not physically attack(although may warn/make a fuss). We initially misinterpreted Casey's mannerisms, being our first GSP. We thought his quirks were cute parts of his personality (circling, warbling noises, arched back, low wavering head, worried eyes, whining, etc), but were actually signs of insecurity. Once we embraced his insecurity, and our own weaknesses, it gave us something to change.

You sound like you are dedicated. I agree to keep them supervised. There is no easy short-term solution. In addition to commitment, for us it required complete life, mentality and environment changes: self-discipline, education of dog language, education of behavior modification, learning to anticipate/avoid issues, becoming mindful of our own energy, socialization changes, and making sure all humans around are on board.


PS, I use a leash or check cord instead of a e-collar to control my dog in outside situations. A dog can still ignore an e-collar, but they cannot ignore a cord as long as I have a grip. In difficult situations(which happens less and less as the months go by), we go back to having him leashed closely to us.

Sounds like you have a committment like I do . . . I took the dog and that means for life.  That can mean placing the dog with strict requirements and with the caveat that they cannot transfer the dog to anyone or any humane society.  If it gets to that point, make sure he is microchipped with your info too.

The key will be supervsion.  Not that something cannot happen right in front of you.  I think you will learn the demeanor of when something is about to happen and stop it before hand.  And obedience training with both dogs will certainly help alot.  It helps them both learn who is really in control in a fun sort of way, and that is you.

GSPs are alot of fun, but gosh they can be challenging too.

Roz.

In a previous post I had talked about an incident I had with my English Springer Spaniel, Jackie and Zoe.

We were in the yard and I did not realize that Jackie had just killed a baby bunny and Zoe went to investigate what Jackie was doing and Jackie turned on her and attacked. Zoe was only 10 weeks old at the time.

This led to a visit to the after hours emergency vet, me getting bit and going to the after hours urgent care, which in turned led to animal control & the police paying me a visit and utlimately having to quarantine Jackie for 10 days.

I was so upset over this and of course people were asking are you going to have her euthanized - I just couldn't do it.  Jackie had been my constant companion for 11 years.

I don't know if you may want to consider this but, my vet actually put Jackie on doggie Prozac. It really helped mellow her out and she stopped being aggressive towards Zoe.  Of course after the incident when they were together they were always supervised.