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Subject: Hard Mouthed
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DuckFeverUser is Offline
Central Oregon
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10/14/2012 5:52 PM  

 So on one hand, I'm super happy that my 7 month old pup will retrieve any bird that he sees fall.  On the other hand I'm not happy about the fact that about 50% of the birds have teeth gashes in the breasts.  I don't reprimand at all at this point, but what should I do?  Should I just start focusing on the hold command?  Any ideas?  


The worst day of hunting is better than the best day at work.
pixie beeUser is Offline

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10/15/2012 5:26 AM  
Reprimanding is useless - he has not been taught a standard.
Teach a correct hold,set the standard,chose a form of correction -
teach,then train.


"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
DuckFeverUser is Offline
Central Oregon
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10/15/2012 7:57 AM  

 That's what I thought, thanks PB.


The worst day of hunting is better than the best day at work.
cynthiaroseUser is Offline
COLORADO
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10/16/2012 11:45 AM  

Sorry to kind of hijack this thread, but can someone elaborate on how to teach a dog to have a 'soft' mouth, or point me the direction of good videos/guides?

pixie beeUser is Offline

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10/16/2012 12:28 PM  
Can you give examples of hardmouth and soft mouth?

It's not really teaching a dog to have a soft mouth as much as it is teaching a dog a proper hold and how to handle game,along with our expectations of a standard.


"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
tgattoUser is Offline
Lake in the Hills, IL
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10/17/2012 11:18 AM  
I agree - hard to define Hard, vs. Soft-mouth. Easy to say that you don't want the bird to have broken bones, or holes in the breasts, however the dog does have to hold the bird, and different dogs have different shaped mouths, different sized birds (Sadie will leave a hole, or so in larger Roosters), if the bird is fighting (not shot dead...)... For me, I watch how she is holding the bird, and it is easier to see when they are still (i.e. sitting). For that reason, a trained-hold is about the only way to ensure a "soft"-mouth (discourage "chomping" etc...).

It is watching the dogs work that I thoroughly enjoy, and love. I could get by with just watching them work - if it weren't for all the training, and the joy they exhibit when they pick-up, and deilver to hand a bird that they pointed, and you shot. - Todd
kpwleeUser is Offline
Raleigh, NC
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10/18/2012 5:15 PM  
A little humor:
Hard-mouth is what is used when Bugsy catches something furry = dead furry thing
Soft-mouth is what is used when Bugsy catches a feathered thing = alive and OK

It's Bugsy's world...
http://dailyzoomie.blogspot.com/
cynthiaroseUser is Offline
COLORADO
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10/18/2012 7:43 PM  
Well I guess maybe I'm not even entirely sure what I'm asking. haha. We don't hunt, so I'm not concerned with game, but in a lot of my readings I see people referring to their dogs having "soft" mouths. There's a couple of discussions on another place where people have mentioned it helps even with simple games at home for your dog to have a soft mouth. When Havoc grabs something he REALLY grabs it. We've been working on a "drop it" command for months and we're not having much success. I was thinking perhaps the also teaching him a different way to hold/retreive things would maybe help with the drop it thing as well. Maybe we're way off base?
DuckFeverUser is Offline
Central Oregon
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10/18/2012 9:06 PM  
For drop, I gently pinch their cheeks against their back molars. You don't want to do it fast and rough so it hurts and they associate pain with holding things, but if you press their cheeks to their teeth gently, they will let go. Say drop as you are doing this.

The worst day of hunting is better than the best day at work.
tgattoUser is Offline
Lake in the Hills, IL
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10/19/2012 8:42 AM  

I usually don't define it in terms of "Soft" mouth, but "Butter"-mouth (as in Butter-fingers). In other words, I want my dog to hold a bird with enough force to actually HOLD it, and not drop it. Dropped birds (when alive), are running birds, and so a dropped bird is a potential lost bird. This is especially true in heavy cover where you DEFINATELY want the dog to be holding the bird with enough force to keep it from escaping. Where I hunted last year, there was really heavy grasses, thickets of thorns, and willow - where the dog could go, but I had real issues. Force-training Sadie was necessary because I really did not want to think about where I was shooting when the bird was flying over these heavily-covered areas. By the end of training, I felt confident that if I brought the bird down, and sent the dog (and the dog could find it) she would bring it back to me. Conservation of game was key - I did not want to leave wounded, or dead game in the field.

As far as "Hard"-mouth issues, it is pretty easy to define the extremes.  I have read stories about dogs eating (entirely) live game, or pinning, and ripping the bird like a toy.  If the bird is not suitable for eating after the dog is "done" with it (a.k.a. - you can pry the bird from the dog's mouth), then, it has a hard mouth.  Some minor gashes in the breast may, or may not be significant - provided the bird is still suitable for the table.


It is watching the dogs work that I thoroughly enjoy, and love. I could get by with just watching them work - if it weren't for all the training, and the joy they exhibit when they pick-up, and deilver to hand a bird that they pointed, and you shot. - Todd
chevyrulzUser is Offline


Posts:8


01/15/2013 10:41 AM  
avery hexa bumpers are hard enough that it's uncomfortable for the dog to clench too hard. might be worth a try, wrap em with wings, start playing fetch, prolly going to take a long time since the dog already has a hard mouth, but if you are patient enough, it can be overcome
RyanGSPUser is Offline

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01/16/2013 12:42 PM  
Put some nails through a tennis ball or bumper. When the dog bites down he will get poked. Wont take long for tye dog to figure it out.

Dont bother with wings or scents they are useless.

What you should do is force fetch the dog and never have to worry about it again.
tgattoUser is Offline
Lake in the Hills, IL
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01/17/2013 3:05 PM  

nails...  I don't know.  I have heard of this approach.  I just have visions of my dog going after a bird/toy with nails in it, and aggressively grabbing it, squealing, spitting it out, and never picking it (or another one - in the case of a bird) up again (ok, I am being dramatic...). 

I think a trained hold is a way to go. Hard Grabs are addressed immediately.


It is watching the dogs work that I thoroughly enjoy, and love. I could get by with just watching them work - if it weren't for all the training, and the joy they exhibit when they pick-up, and deilver to hand a bird that they pointed, and you shot. - Todd
Texas BelleUser is Offline
Austin, TX
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01/17/2013 4:13 PM  

I agree with tgatto. I train my dogs for hold and have never had a hard mouth issue. You never want to do anything that may give the dog a negative association with a bird. BTW my oldest dog catches doves in the backyard and when she brings them to me they are still alive. She has an incredibly soft mouth.


Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)

Yellow Rose GSPs

 photo FaunaBISJan20110001cropped_resized_zps96af44b6.jpg  photo DSC_0044_cropped_zps0a25f9ff.jpg  photo DSC_0030a_zps3c822a4a.jpg  photo DSC_0016cropped_zpsab533745.jpg

"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato
kpwleeUser is Offline
Raleigh, NC
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01/17/2013 5:22 PM  
Wow I wouldn't use nails, but I am not as skilled & experienced as others. I am lucky, Bugsy kills furry things and is soft mouthed on feathered things.
Just the other week he caught an American Coot and it was perfectly fine after I got him to release

It's Bugsy's world...
http://dailyzoomie.blogspot.com/
RyanGSPUser is Offline

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01/17/2013 8:54 PM  
No offense but that method has been used for decades but world renowned dog trainers that have trained hundreds of dogs.

How long have you been training dogs and how many have you trained?

If you want a perfect reliable retrieve then force fetch the dog. Why do it half arsed? Either do it all the way or be happy the way it is.
Texas BelleUser is Offline
Austin, TX
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01/17/2013 9:11 PM  
I have been training dogs for over 40 years. I would never use nails. However, I do use force fetch, but that is a totally different thing. Just because allot of people have done something for a long time or think something is right, that does not necessarily make it correct. Remember at one time everyone thought the world was flat, and but for a few who thought differently the US would never have been discovered.

As I said in my post we will have to agree to disagree. I would never begrudge your training if you are happy with it, but I would also never use that technique as I think it is unnecessary to the outcome I am looking for.

Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)

Yellow Rose GSPs

 photo FaunaBISJan20110001cropped_resized_zps96af44b6.jpg  photo DSC_0044_cropped_zps0a25f9ff.jpg  photo DSC_0030a_zps3c822a4a.jpg  photo DSC_0016cropped_zpsab533745.jpg

"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato
tgattoUser is Offline
Lake in the Hills, IL
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Posts:411


01/18/2013 10:28 AM  
Posted By RyanGSP on 01/17/2013 8:54 PM
No offense but that method has been used for decades but world renowned dog trainers that have trained hundreds of dogs.

How long have you been training dogs and how many have you trained?

If you want a perfect reliable retrieve then force fetch the dog. Why do it half arsed? Either do it all the way or be happy the way it is.

I don't think anyone was adversely commenting on Force Fetch.  That is the right way.  I also understand that using nails has been used in the past - so have other very painful methods of training.  I believe that with a solid Force-Fetch program, and patience, you can get there without using it.  My comment was that I prefer not to go that direction (using nails) - regardless of how many decades it was used for.  I also believe there are many ways to come at training issues.

Many World Renowned trainers today don't associate the use of training with nails, or barbed wire, or anything like that with development of a "soft-mouth".  Graham, Lardy, Hickox, and others stress solid training in FF (particularly the "Hold") instead of re-training of a softer mouth after a habit of hard-mouth has been established.  These trainers will generally recommend a chuck under the chin if the dogs starts chomping away at a dummy during Hold training, and the use of different objects (hard dowels, brissle brushes, paint rollers) to encourage a soft-mouth.

Again, (IMO), I want to avoid causing injury to the dog in any way, and nails in toys and frozen birds seem to have the natural consequence of causing punctures in the dog's mouth.  I just want to avoid that, and would look for another way.  I have found it better to use brushes, and other items during "Hold" Training that essentially effect the same behavior while reducing the risk of physical damage to the dog.

I don't believe that is being "half-arsed", and it leads to the right behavior in the dog without risk of injury to the dog:


It is watching the dogs work that I thoroughly enjoy, and love. I could get by with just watching them work - if it weren't for all the training, and the joy they exhibit when they pick-up, and deilver to hand a bird that they pointed, and you shot. - Todd
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Forums > General > Training > Hard Mouthed



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