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TizziecUser is Offline

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09/10/2012 5:14 AM  

Our newly adopted GSP will be coming off exercise restrictions in a couple of weeks. As was expected, we are struggling a bit with getting/keeping his attention and the grand ol "come" command. The fields where we run the dogs in the afternoons after work are not enclosed and too close to roads for comfort. We want to make sure Jake (new guy) is ableto get plenty of exercise... he is itching for it now, but so afraid to let him go.

I have been talking to folks about electronic dog collars. I am really on the fence about it, though a little more ok with vibrating collars. I am looking only to use it for the purpose of making sure we can get Jake to learn "come".

What do folks feel about the collars, and can anyone point me in the direction of a good one, preferably one that won't break the bank right now?

tgattoUser is Offline
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09/10/2012 9:00 AM  
I would not get a collar just to "teach" your dog to come. It won't work - don't waste your time. E-collars are used to train dogs to follow known commands when they are off-leash. It takes time (usually Months), and patience to properly integrate an e-collar into a training regiment. Yes, some dogs will learn with just an e-collar, through application of remote punishment, but this approach can have very negative effects on most animals (reduces them to shaking, scared, un-trusting canines). Instead, a thorough conditioning process as a natural progression of obedience training should be used, with the ultimate goal of not EVER having to use the collar. For this reason (if it is something you wish to pursue), first purchase a good book on using an electronic collar, including a thorough conditioning process; purchase a collar with adjustable intensity at a range you expect the dog to work at (range determines price, primarily); start slow (I start with the collar, and NO corrections for weeks, maybe a month; start conditioning using P(-) (removal of punishment), and lots of R(+) - if you don't know what that is, refer to the books that cover it; then progress to P(+) only after your dog fully understands, and complies with the obedience commands.

My dog Sadie, when following this method, could be hunting full-steam and if I even whisper "Sit", she will tear up ground to come to a stop, and get her butt down, and look at me awaiting the next command. I only have to use the collar to punish if I know she can hear me, but choses not to. In those instances, she also knows (Due to the P(-) training) how to turn off the collar (immediate compliance). I think that is a humane use of the E-collar.

It is watching the dogs work that I thoroughly enjoy, and love. I could get by with just watching them work - if it weren't for all the training, and the joy they exhibit when they pick-up, and deilver to hand a bird that they pointed, and you shot. - Todd
pixie beeUser is Offline

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09/10/2012 10:06 AM  
I'm not sure if any collars are electric.

aren't they all a static shock?

I agree with Todd,
the first step is always TEACH then train - we train with the ecollar.

First teach what "come" means. When the dog responds correctly in 5-7 different environments then you can intro the ecollar.

You can look up trainers like Pat Nolan and Bill Hillman.
There are other good ones, but these are a good place to start.







"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
TizziecUser is Offline

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09/10/2012 10:54 AM  
There are several that are both vibration and static, you choose one or te
He other and I have seen some that are vibration only. I am not likely to use static, and I do plan to continue traditional training, but I am very concerned about safety, especially as we are heading into d
Earlier darkness. Jake becomes nearly invisible just after dusk. I also would not be using it as punishment, but rather as a trigger for his attention, and only for the one command. I have a friend who used the method, and after 6 moths, the dog needs only to have the collar on for it to work... This was done after too many close calls, and Houdini moves out of the back fence to race through the neighborhood.
TizziecUser is Offline

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09/10/2012 10:56 AM  
To note, this is not a working dog, but a family dog we just adopted at 3 years old with absolutely zero previous obedience training of any kind. He is responsive and learning, but also itching and begging to be allowed to run
tgattoUser is Offline
Lake in the Hills, IL
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09/10/2012 11:36 AM  

By the way, the reason E-Collars get a bad wrap, if you research it on the internet, is that people think you "shock" the dogs into compliance, or "fry" them if they mis-behave. Some websites show pictures of dogs with, so-called, burned necks, and so on... It upsets me greatly, but not for the reasons you would think...

Little background on me... I have an electonic engineering background (where I started) and have worked in Medical Devices, in various roles for almost 20-years. I designed MENS, and TENS units (electrical neurologic stimulation for therapy) back in the late '90's (along with shortwave, microwave, ultra-sonic therapy, as well as Electro-surgical (cutting tissue with Radio-frequency current) units). I also worked on Hospital Beds, and therapy surfaces to combat pressure soars in the early 2000's. The E-collar is designed, as PB noted, to apply a static shock (high voltage, high frequency) - just like a TENS (Transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulation) device (also marketed on late-night TV to replace sit-ups (a different conversation!)). Particulary, the collar, when stimulation is applied, causes the muscles to contract (tense) in the dog's neck - which, by the way, is exactly what they do in response to a tug on the collar (when used right, ane-collar is just as humane as a leash). It is in no way powerful enough, or have enough capacity to cause burns, but can hurt the dog quite a bit, if turned to too high an intensity (so can the units sold to replace sit-ups ). If the dog ever vocalizes (whines, cries, howls, collapses into a heap on the floor...) it is set too high.

The photos online of so-called "burns from shock collar" are really pictures of pressure soars (another topic I happen to know quite a bit about) caused by owners keeping the collar on the dog all the time (usually further enhanced by shaving around the area as well). Pressure soars are caused when localized pressure interrupts blood-flow locally. The result is that the tissue around the pressure area (with disrupted blood-flow) dies, resulting in a pressure ulcer, or sore. I have seen just as bad pictures of people who keep their dogs chained-up unsupervised all day, every day - same effect, equally inhumane.

I have absolutely no concerns over using an e-collar to train my dog, any more than I have concerns over being a human test subject on the TENS units we designed, and built for medical use. If used correctly, an e-collar can be a huge asset to a dog trainer/handler. If you do have any concerns, or if your head is not in the right place (i.e., "I'm going to fry the dog for mis-behaving"), please, please, PLEASE - DON'T USE ONE! As with many pieces of equipment, there is a right way, and a wrong way to do it.


It is watching the dogs work that I thoroughly enjoy, and love. I could get by with just watching them work - if it weren't for all the training, and the joy they exhibit when they pick-up, and deilver to hand a bird that they pointed, and you shot. - Todd
tgattoUser is Offline
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09/10/2012 11:48 AM  
Posted By Tizziec on 09/10/2012 10:54 AM
...I also would not be using it as punishment, but rather as a trigger for his attention, and only for the one command...


What's the difference to the dog?

It will be more effective if you use it for training - and I think you will be much happier with the behavior of the dog, along with the dog being able to learn faster.  Start with "sit", also "Heel", then move to "come"... etc...  Read this online article:  www.tritronics.com/content/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/manuals/basic_training.pdf .  If you are concerned about safety, and want to get your dog's attention, get a long check-cord, not an e-collar.

 

Posted By Tizziec  on  09/10/2012 10:56 AM

To note, this is not a working dog, but a family dog we just adopted at 3 years old with absolutely zero previous obedience training of any kind. He is responsive and learning, but also itching and begging to be allowed to run

"There is no secret ingredient" (Kung-fu Panda).


It is watching the dogs work that I thoroughly enjoy, and love. I could get by with just watching them work - if it weren't for all the training, and the joy they exhibit when they pick-up, and deilver to hand a bird that they pointed, and you shot. - Todd
TizziecUser is Offline

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09/10/2012 12:01 PM  
No concerns about frying, I have tried the dog collar on myself after watching my kid do it.... Ya, we might be a little odd lol... No, I just prefer if I can do it with the vibration, just as I prefer to use the harness as opposed to neck collar. Just a thing. I am not a fan of praying either... Never tried to train my bird that way, though one cat loved to play water gun with me... Weirdo.

My concerns are with training but more importantly about safety and making sure the dog is able to get good exercise once off the restrictions for health, which is set at oct first. I am working hard with him till then, but I think my concerns for balancing safety and exercise will be there for quite a while with this guy.
TizziecUser is Offline

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09/10/2012 12:05 PM  
Tagatto... I am working in that order, but given the lack of large enclosed areas where he is allowed to be off leash, I am scared to death of him running off. We have enclosed dog parks but they are leash only unless we have the time to drive a bit, which does happen, but not often enough for regular exercise. We do have a great off leash area two minute walk from the house, but not enclosed. The dogs all absolutely love the fields there, including jake. We let him explore on a 25 foot lead there for now.
TizziecUser is Offline

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09/10/2012 12:08 PM  
So I don't confuse anyone, I would be using the collar much the same as one uses a clicker for bird training. I had a bird that was train to fly to my finder on the clicker after he learned to fly to places I could reach :)
tgattoUser is Offline
Lake in the Hills, IL
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09/10/2012 12:19 PM  
When I was a kid, my dad felt that the shock collar was for "getting the dog's attention". Problem was that he never taught the dog what to do once we got the dog's attention. I watched our dog Heidi disappear to a speck in an unenclosed dog training area - accelerating, and yelping each time my dad hit the button. She was missing for 3-days over Thanksgiving (nice family conversation that year! LOL!), and was picked-up on a VERY busy street (divided highway), and, luckily, returned to us. We got a Christmas ornament from our family with Heidi's picture on a milk carton (which is still on my parent's tree as a reminder - again, LOL).

I understand your urgency with keeping the dog safe, but I don't think an e-collar is an end-all solution. I highly recommend patiently integrating the e-collar into his training. You are doing the right thing with keeping him on the 25 foot check-cord for now for exercise.

Understand that my recommendation is only based upon personal experiences. I rescued my last dog (Sophie) at about the same age as yours, and followed the exact guide I recommended earlier, and never had an issue - actually, it progressed much faster than I expected, I used the collar much less than expected (I think I changed the batteries once in the 9-years she lived with us), and she was obedient her entire life.

It is watching the dogs work that I thoroughly enjoy, and love. I could get by with just watching them work - if it weren't for all the training, and the joy they exhibit when they pick-up, and deilver to hand a bird that they pointed, and you shot. - Todd
TizziecUser is Offline

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09/10/2012 12:43 PM  
We are working on "come" and where he is most comfortable I have maybe a 60% success rate which is great after only two weeks and a new name, but when he gets to a new or less familiar place it goes to zero or worse. He goes almost autistic like if the least bit distracted. Still a good dog, but I become nonexistent lol I was going to try a clicker, but I am not sure how far that would be heard on a windy day in the woods lol
tgattoUser is Offline
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09/10/2012 12:59 PM  
Maybe you should consider a whistle (so it is heard), reinforced positively with a clicker.

It is watching the dogs work that I thoroughly enjoy, and love. I could get by with just watching them work - if it weren't for all the training, and the joy they exhibit when they pick-up, and deilver to hand a bird that they pointed, and you shot. - Todd
TizziecUser is Offline

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09/10/2012 1:05 PM  
Been working with a whistle plus clap with the verbal command for come, and to get attention when he is distracted so as to pair that with come. Again, he does ok in familiar surrounding, but plays totally deaf otherwise. We as well as our vet feared he might actually be deaf the first week we had him lol.... I had a grandfather like that, thought he was stone deaf till about a week after gramma passed, then suddenly he could hear a pin drop a mile away haaaa
pixie beeUser is Offline

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09/10/2012 1:15 PM  
I would be using the collar much the same as one uses a clicker for bird training.


Why don't you just use a clicker?

research is your best friend when it comes to this subject


"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
TizziecUser is Offline

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09/10/2012 1:40 PM  
He has such selective hearing I am not sure a clicker will work. I will give it a shot as soon as I find the clicker.
tgattoUser is Offline
Lake in the Hills, IL
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09/10/2012 2:23 PM  

 

Posted By Tizziec  on  09/10/2012 1:40 PM

He has such selective hearing I am not sure a clicker will work.

 "Selective hearing"...  A.K.A, Disobedience.  He hears you alright - guaranteed.  He chooses to not obey you.  You can change the stimulus (Whistle, Clap, Command, Click, Jump up and down in a clown suit (I added that one...)), but if you do not have a different way of conditioning the behavior (reward correct behavior - coming when called, or punishing/correcting incorrect behavior - pressure through leash, pinch, shock, vibration...) you probably won't be successful in improving his "hearing".  Command once (either whistle, clap, OR command), then correct (if he doesn't comply), and reward (when he does). It is that simple - and that complex.  Good Luck!


It is watching the dogs work that I thoroughly enjoy, and love. I could get by with just watching them work - if it weren't for all the training, and the joy they exhibit when they pick-up, and deilver to hand a bird that they pointed, and you shot. - Todd
TizziecUser is Offline

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09/10/2012 3:07 PM  
As far as his hearing goes, his ability to tune it out even had the vet fooled (I swear everyone was conviced he was completely deaf, not so much as a twitch of the ear no matter what we did LOL)

As for treats, I am NEVER without them. Currently using diced boiled chicken as per a diet restriction, but it works so well I might stick with it. If he is distracted though, he doesn't even notice the treat even if right under his nose. I found that out today as between saying "good dog" and bringing the treat to his mouth, an evil squirrell showed up, and Jake became rainman LOL.

As for your list of way to bring his attention back to me... we are working on it, I do jump yell dance and basically make an ass out of myself in public at times, but I am convinced he WILL get there with time, a lot of effort and hopes of more people in contact with him getting on board with this HAHA

I do have the patience of a saint with the training (single mom here... having a toddler was good practice LOL) I maintain concern with him getting loose, I will work for as long as it takes, but I feel a need for a safety net. I fell in love quick with my baby :) Daddy is not so patient in general, and is ready to fly the white flag at every set back. I am currently seeking out an animal behavior specialist to come to the house and help with the "arguments" occuring between Jake and the resident dog. I am afraid if I don't find a way to fix THAT now, Jake will be gone, and frankly I like jake better :) Ya my hands are full, and I may possibly just be starting to pick up on daddy's pannic. I swear the man is harder to train than the dogs!
pixie beeUser is Offline

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09/10/2012 3:25 PM  
open up a candy wrapper when he's in another room - you'l find out how deaf he is

quote]I do jump yell dance and basically make an ass out of myself in public at times, but I am convinced he WILL get there with time,

Why would you do this?

The dog is playing you, you are allowing it and encouraging it.

You do not seem to be willing to put in the effort.

You say one thing, then another -you appear overwhelmed

obedience,obedience,obedience

for both dogs










"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
tgattoUser is Offline
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09/10/2012 3:27 PM  
Posted By tgatto on 09/10/2012 2:23 PM
...but if you do not have a different way of conditioning the behavior (reward correct behavior - coming when called, or punishing/correcting incorrect behavior - pressure through leash, pinch, shock, vibration...) you probably won't be successful in improving his "hearing".  Command once (either whistle, clap, OR command), then correct (if he doesn't comply), and reward (when he does). It is that simple - and that complex.  Good Luck!

 And don't bother investing in an e-collar yet.  He has a ways to go before he is ready for that.


It is watching the dogs work that I thoroughly enjoy, and love. I could get by with just watching them work - if it weren't for all the training, and the joy they exhibit when they pick-up, and deilver to hand a bird that they pointed, and you shot. - Todd
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