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Subject: Dominance (long message sorry)
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keanmuUser is Offline
Ontario, Canada
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08/02/2012 6:49 AM  

Baira has always been, what we assume is very dominant. She is very friendly once she trusts new people but acts very timid/aggressive when first meeting them. This is even more apparent when at home. She barks and then grumbles/growls until she is happy to accept them. She's better with women but can sometimes spend hours grumbling at a guest in the house. Then she laps up the attention. Any sudden moves though has her barking and running away with her tail between her legs.

She competes for attention over Leos, pushing her way into him and pushing him out of the way. Even whilst they are waiting for permission to come in the house she muscles her way in front of Leos so he is slightly behind her.

We've had one incident whilst they were at the kennels, when she nailed Leos whilst they were eating. He has the scars too. Never had this issue at home though. She also attacked the kennel owners dog!!! Previously they had played and spent the whole week together and got on great but that was before Leos was on the scene. Apparently he let his dog out, not thinking there would be any issue and Baira just launched at her. Thankfully she didn't hurt her as the guy was right there and stopped it immediately.

They both have those orange dummies but Baira always wants the one Leos has got. When they get bones/dog chews Baira won't touch hers until Leos is finished and then she guards it with her life (I take it off her).

They play quite rough together but Baira always seems to just want to pin Leos down to the ground. He seems to play more, she seems more determined in her play.

I was at the stables a few weeks ago and a woman walked across the yard, not to us, just kind of in our direction and Bairs approached her, at a jog, barking and growling at her. Now, both dogs are muzzled at the stables because they eat everything and make themselves sick but I wondered what she would have done if she wasn't muzzled. She didn't actually touch the woman but was only may 12 inches away from her and the woman got a fright. She did recall immediately when I called her.

More recently Baira has taken to getting into Leos crate. He goes and gets in hers but she gets in his crate when he's in there too. She lies down at the door of the crate whilst he's having to sit up for lack of room.

I wonder if anyone can offer any advice/tips on how to deal with her. They are both made to sit before meals and are given permission to eat at the same time. When she protects her bones I remove them (unless Leos has his still). Neither of them are allowed to greet guests until given permission and if Baira continually grumbles she is taken out of the room. They both have to sit before entering the house and if Baira shoves Leos out of the way I make her move to the back of him. They are very rarely given treats but when they are they both have to sit and give a paw. I alternate who gets the treat first. They walk side by side on the lead but when Baira tries to get her head in front of him I make her walk slightly behind him. They both walk together off lead, no competing.

What else can I do?

pixie beeUser is Offline

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08/02/2012 9:07 AM  
The place to start is to understand what's going on with her.

She is a bit dominant but IMO, this is out of fear and insecurity rather than true dominance.
A dominant dog is confident, Baira is not displaying confident behavior.

So, if you agree that she is fearful and insecure there are methods to change this - IMO, this can never be changed 100% but can be changed enough to ease the dog's mind and create a healthier mind and body.


The first change will come with high(er) standards of obedience.
Next, to give her as many experiences as possible - people,places,dogs,objects.
Next, build confidence as you would in a kid.
Anytime kids do something new they feel good about themselves,I believe the same is true about dogs.
If you lead her to say an ostacle course - could be chairs,benches,planks,etc and guide her along the cat walks,jumps,crawls,etc she will begin to trust you and herself and trust in you will ease her mind and create peace within her.

You may find that when she is in prey/play drive she behaves differently - she may ignore a person if she is doing controlled retrieves - play drive,obedience which is handler drive and focus on a task.
If you can refocus her on a controlled task , a task YOU control, she will eventually begin to feel comfort in knowing these "intruders" are not her concern.
At first her focus will be 25-75, over time her focus will be 100% on the task.

She may always be a work in progress, and you will be kept on your toes.
I do not believe in giving up on a dog.









"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
Texas BelleUser is Offline
Austin, TX
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08/02/2012 9:37 AM  
I agree with pixie, she is insecure. In addition to what pixie said I would add I think she is also uncertain of her place in relation to Leos. Decide who you want as number one and act accordingly. Quit swapping out. If Baira is your number one, feed her first, treat her first, etc. if she tries to get ahead of Leos walking just remind her to heel and get her back in heel position, not behind. Anyway, you get the picture. I have a feeling that Leos has increased her uncertainty because she is unsure of her place in your pack.

Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)

Yellow Rose GSPs

 photo FaunaBISJan20110001cropped_resized_zps96af44b6.jpg  photo DSC_0044_cropped_zps0a25f9ff.jpg  photo DSC_0030a_zps3c822a4a.jpg  photo DSC_0016cropped_zpsab533745.jpg

"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato
Texas BelleUser is Offline
Austin, TX
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08/02/2012 9:37 AM  
I agree with pixie, she is insecure. In addition to what pixie said I would add I think she is also uncertain of her place in relation to Leos. Decide who you want as number one and act accordingly. Quit swapping out. If Baira is your number one, feed her first, treat her first, etc. if she tries to get ahead of Leos walking just remind her to heel and get her back in heel position, not behind. Anyway, you get the picture. I have a feeling that Leos has increased her uncertainty because she is unsure of her place in your pack.

Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)

Yellow Rose GSPs

 photo FaunaBISJan20110001cropped_resized_zps96af44b6.jpg  photo DSC_0044_cropped_zps0a25f9ff.jpg  photo DSC_0030a_zps3c822a4a.jpg  photo DSC_0016cropped_zpsab533745.jpg

"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato
keanmuUser is Offline
Ontario, Canada
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08/02/2012 9:51 AM  
Thanks for taking the time to read all that.

I will never give up on her. All though I will have to find her alternative homing if she ever shows any aggression towards my 7 year old daughter. She never has, they get on fine, even whilst Grace is play training with her or climbing on top of her.

I agree that she has no self confidence. She was terrified when we first got her at 16 weeks old. Simple things like the crate doors being closed. Leos will use his foot to open it, Baira just stands there looking at me.The breeder was a rough man, I don't think he abused her but I think he was very hard and manhandled his dogs alot. Unfortunately the standards for breeding/keeping dogs here isn't as high as it is in other countries.

They are both very well bahaved. They won't touch anything if told not to, even if I leave the room, they walk to heel off lead and run off lead and recall instantly. They ignore other dogs and people, I can take them anywhere and no they will settle and be no trouble (unless someone approaches us, then Baira starts growling). On the way back from every walk I stop at the end of my road, make them sit and stay until I am at my gate, then all them lol.

When we go to the pond I can spend 30 minutes throwing Baira's dummy in for her and whilst we're doing it she doesn't focus on anything else. Other dogs and people can come and go and she doesn't pay any attention to them, her mind is firmly fixed on her dummy. She doesn't even bother with the ducks on the pond, doesn't even look at them. Incidentally, it took her almost a year to gain confidence in the water. Leos was swimming in alot less time than her.

I was considering dog agility. Bit of a language barrier here though plus I need to get her jumping in the garden before going off to something like that lol. Maybe I will start something in the garden.

Thanks for your help
keanmuUser is Offline
Ontario, Canada
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08/02/2012 9:56 AM  
Thanks Bev. I think before Leos came she was always trying to be dominant over us. She learnt her place with us and then when Leos came I think she has competed to keep her place. She still has it but I guess i'm sending her mixed messages.

Got to work out how to build her confidence and let her know that she is top dog with out her getting too bossy over Leos and attacking him again.
SmylinachaUser is Offline
Connecticut
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08/02/2012 1:12 PM  
Is it true that the females are most dominent? Velvet ruled the roost as soon as we got her and Windsor accepted that. She gets fed first, pushes him out of the way when it comes to attention, going out the back door and wants Windsor's toys, even though she has identical ones. I think it bugged Windsor for a while but he is ok with it now. She will even steal his crate at times also. Now when it is play time, Windsor will tease her with his toys. He is getting more confident around her. Maybe in time it will mellow out? Seems to here although it took a few months. I will post yesterday's ball video shortly so you can see how they act.
BinniUser is Offline
Pittsburgh, PA
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08/03/2012 3:39 PM  

I am having trouble with the dominant issue also.  Binni is always mouthing with Niko.   The two of them "fight" constantly.  I try to let them work it out, but they will go on and on for hours.  Binni (female) was with us first.  She is 10 months old.  Niko (male) is 7 monts old.  Outside, Binni will run straight at him and just blow him over.  In the house they fight over the same toy.  I always feed Binni first, let her out first and give her a treat first. 

One would think she is the dominant one with the way she acts towards Niko, BUT when Niko has a bone and Binni's is gone, he will growl at her and she will not go near him.  I know she is afraid of him.  This is why I can't understand what the heck is going on.  This constant battle has been going on since the day Niko joined our family in February.  It is so difficult at times because they are running around the house and causing such havoc.  I am always breaking the two of them apart.  If I don't, Binni will NEVER stop!

I thought having another dog would be a good idea and Binni would have a playmate, but this is way more difficult than I ever thought it would be.  They are both here and both are staying.  Just not sure what I am doing wrong.

Any suggestions?  Will this ever stop?????

Texas BelleUser is Offline
Austin, TX
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08/03/2012 4:00 PM  
Binni - sounds like they are playing more than fighting. What happens if you put them out and just let them play. As long as they are not drawing blood just let them play. They will eventually tire of it.

Smyl - Bitches rule in the shorthair world. That said there will be a top female and a top male when you have a larger pack, but the female is still number 1.

Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)

Yellow Rose GSPs

 photo FaunaBISJan20110001cropped_resized_zps96af44b6.jpg  photo DSC_0044_cropped_zps0a25f9ff.jpg  photo DSC_0030a_zps3c822a4a.jpg  photo DSC_0016cropped_zpsab533745.jpg

"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato
vnrose53User is Offline

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08/03/2012 6:04 PM  

Yeah, Chelsea has always been the boss although she's a pretty quiet, reserved dog.  When I brought Jasper home six months after getting her (he was 11 months, she 16) she beat the crap out of him for about 30 minutes until he was thoroughly terrorized.    But he gave in so thoroughly that there were no further problems!  Then after Jaspie died and I got Humphrey, she would walk by his crate and give him the evil eye and growl for the first few days.  He was so mellow that he never responded in kind, just wagged his tail, and she soon accepted him.  Now, she's kind of "shy" of him when he gets boisterous because he's bigger and younger, but when she wants a toy she tells him so and he says "Okay!"   

SmylinachaUser is Offline
Connecticut
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08/03/2012 6:55 PM  
Wish the bitches ruled in the People world at my house lol
BinniUser is Offline
Pittsburgh, PA
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08/03/2012 8:37 PM  

Texas Belle,

Thanks so much for your response.  I will let them go and see what happens.  It's hard not to break them up, but I guess I have to let it go and just see how it plays out. 

Texas BelleUser is Offline
Austin, TX
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08/03/2012 9:04 PM  
Binni - If you have a broom with the straw head it works really good in breaking up dogs that get a little to aggressive with each other. When one of my females challenged my oldest girl I grabbed my broom and brought it down right in the middle of them. They backed off really quick, and I didn't have to risk getting bit. Now if anyone gets a little too pushy I just pick up that broom and they settle right down. I haven't even had to use it again. Of course, I have only had a couple of instances where one of my dogs challenged someone else in the pack, and it was always right after I had changed the pack dynamics by bringing another dog into the family.

Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)

Yellow Rose GSPs

 photo FaunaBISJan20110001cropped_resized_zps96af44b6.jpg  photo DSC_0044_cropped_zps0a25f9ff.jpg  photo DSC_0030a_zps3c822a4a.jpg  photo DSC_0016cropped_zpsab533745.jpg

"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato
SplatUser is Offline
Illinois (Northern)
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Posts:3130


08/04/2012 6:01 AM  
My two play and they can appear to be playing very rough and loud.... but they have never drawn blood or hurt each other...

Also some think that Striker is my top dog cuz he barks and is wild... however in reality I believe Blitz is cuz he is more secure and confident in himself... when we go out to big fields Bitz wll go further away from me and not check back in unless called.... where Striker stays within site and comes back often... also when new people show up Striker will bark but if they go to pet him he runs away... but as soon as I greet the person and start talking to them he comes up and acts his usual overly friendly self.... Blitz when someone new comes greets them right away no barking....

BinniUser is Offline
Pittsburgh, PA
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Posts:76


08/04/2012 10:47 AM  

 Texas Belle

You are the best. Binni is my first GSP and I have learned so much here!  Thanks so much for all of your time and information.

I let them go at it this morning.  They rolled around and mouthed each other for 20 minutes.  Binni is clearly stronger and quicker. She is always on top of Niko.  After 20 minutes, they took a break and went to the water bowl and took a huge drink together then layed down and went to sleep. They started going at it again when my husband walked in the door.   Niko just will not give up,,  this could take awhile!

everbellUser is Offline
Kanata, ON
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08/04/2012 4:53 PM  
Raz came into our lives when Bo was 2. She took over immediately. The funny thing is, I think Bo likes being told what to do :)

Joce and Rich
Bogart and Shiraz (GSPs)
Roxane (RIP: 1995-2009) and Tiger Lily (Cats)
The Everbell Adventures
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