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Tracy Novoa
Western NY
MH
Posts:191
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| 07/23/2012 1:57 PM |
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Our standard reads:
"The teeth are strong and healthy. The molars intermesh properly. The bite is a true scissors bite. A perfect level bite is not desirable and must be penalized. Extreme overshot or undershot disqualifies."
Where in those words does it read a dog must be SEVERELY penalized for missing TWO premolars? I once again pulled out the canine tooth chart and mapped my dog's mouth. In the sentences above, he qualifies in all positive aspects. His teeth are very strong and very clean. He is missing two, side x side, lower left premolars but all of his molars are there and intermesh and has all the teeth to prove a perfect scissor bite. These premolars are tiny and spread out on the jawline so two missing, next to the two existing tiny one's in front of them, may give the illusion of many missing teeth. Of course, the judges don't look on the other side of the mouth either, they stop at those two.
This past Saturday we won BOB and a Group 3 under different judges who've been in the business a long time. On Sunday I was mortified when, another long time judge, went digging through my dogs mouth and then dumped us. When judges do this, he tends to start to resist the bite exam. It's also very disturbing when you pay a handler a good buck only to be told "he would have been the breed winner had it not been for the missing teeth." The best one yet is the judge who said if he were ever kicked in the head by a horse....LOL, REALLY?!?
I travel some good distances to shows so this is very disappointing. Is this right or wrong of judges to "judge to their own standard"? In my experience, I think there are a greater number of Canadian judges counting teeth than American. Are both sides of the border being educated?
Tracy N.
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Enjoy them every minute you have them!
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hunterspridegsp1
JH
Posts:34
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| 07/23/2012 1:57 PM |
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| Not particularly Canadian judges - FCI judges will count teeth - in every breed including Toys. More importantly see where this judge started - if it was in the Working Group they will expect more and a complete, correct bite.
If only judges would judge by the standard of the country they are judging but they are Judge's  One person's opinion on a particular day!
Congrats on the Group 3rd!!
Maxine On 2012-06-12, at 12:35 PM, Tracy Novoa wrote:
Our standard reads:
"The teeth are strong and healthy. The molars intermesh properly. The bite is a true scissors bite. A perfect level bite is not desirable and must be penalized. Extreme overshot or undershot disqualifies."
Where in those words does it read a dog must be SEVERELY penalized for missing TWO premolars? I once again pulled out the canine tooth chart and mapped my dog's mouth. In the sentences above, he qualifies in all positive aspects. His teeth are very strong and very clean. He is missing two, side x side, lower left premolars but all of his molars are there and intermesh and has all the teeth to prove a perfect scissor bite. These premolars are tiny and spread out on the jawline so two missing, next to the two existing tiny one's in front of them, may give the illusion of many missing teeth. Of course, the judges don't look on the other side of the mouth either, they stop at those two.
This past Saturday we won BOB and a Group 3 under different judges who've been in the business a long time. On Sunday I was mortified when, another long time judge, went digging through my dogs mouth and then dumped us. When judges do this, he tends to start to resist the bite exam. It's also very disturbing when you pay a handler a good buck only to be told "he would have been the breed winner had it not been for the missing teeth." The best one yet is the judge who said if he were ever kicked in the head by a horse....LOL, REALLY?!?
I travel some good distances to shows so this is very disappointing. Is this right or wrong of judges to "judge to their own standard"? In my experience, I think there are a greater number of Canadian judges counting teeth than American. Are both sides of the border being educated?
Tracy N.
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gsp4me
MH
Posts:92
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| 07/23/2012 1:57 PM |
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"Is this right or wrong of judges to "judge to their own standard"?
Tracy-I have been showing along time and I have to say there are alot of judges that seem to judge to their own standard and not just with teeth. That is why one sees very inconsistent judging and judging that puts up breeds that some would say are poor examples of the standard. Again, this is where judges education comes into play. Very frustrating I know. Some judges I am told are head hunters, some judges I am told love movement, some judges I am told are tooth fairys. Just need to put that particular judge on your DNS list. Been there done that.
Vicki-Stormwynd
On Jun 12, 2012, Tracy Novoa wrote:
Our standard reads:
"The teeth are strong and healthy. The molars intermesh properly. The bite is a true scissors bite. A perfect level bite is not desirable and must be penalized. Extreme overshot or undershot disqualifies."
Where in those words does it read a dog must be SEVERELY penalized for missing TWO premolars? I once again pulled out the canine tooth chart and mapped my dog's mouth. In the sentences above, he qualifies in all positive aspects. His teeth are very strong and very clean. He is missing two, side x side, lower left premolars but all of his molars are there and intermesh and has all the teeth to prove a perfect scissor bite. These premolars are tiny and spread out on the jawline so two missing, next to the two existing tiny one's in front of them, may give the illusion of many missing teeth. Of course, the judges don't look on the other side of the mouth either, they stop at those two.
This past Saturday we won BOB and a Group 3 under different judges who've been in the business a long time. On Sunday I was mortified when, another long time judge, went digging through my dogs mouth and then dumped us. When judges do this, he tends to start to resist the bite exam. It's also very disturbing when you pay a handler a good buck only to be told "he would have been the breed winner had it not been for the missing teeth." The best one yet is the judge who said if he were ever kicked in the head by a horse....LOL, REALLY?!?
I travel some good distances to shows so this is very disappointing. Is this right or wrong of judges to "judge to their own standard"? In my experience, I think there are a greater number of Canadian judges counting teeth than American. Are both sides of the border being educated?
Tracy N.
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Tracy Novoa
Western NY
MH
Posts:191
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| 07/23/2012 1:57 PM |
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Does anyone have a list of tooth fairys so I don't have to drive 300 miles to find them???
On another note, and please answer privately, does anyone know of any particular dog(s) that have passed down missing/extra teeth? In that litter of 9, he's the only one. I traced way back on his dam's sire side, through NAVHDA, and only found one dog 4 generations back with an extra tooth. His dam's litter brother had 2 extra teeth. I own/owned his dam, grand-dam and great grand-sire and no teeth issues there (outside of a couple knocked out ). My vet thinks it may be purely a birth defect but I would be curious if somewhere else the gene was passed graciously onto us.
Thanks!
Tracy
-----Original Message-----
From: Vicki
To: gsp-l
Sent: Tue, Jun 12, 2012 4:45 pm
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Teeth Revisited
"Is this right or wrong of judges to "judge to their own standard"?
Tracy-I have been showing along time and I have to say there are alot of judges that seem to judge to their own standard and not just with teeth. That is why one sees very inconsistent judging and judging that puts up breeds that some would say are poor examples of the standard. Again, this is where judges education comes into play. Very frustrating I know. Some judges I am told are head hunters, some judges I am told love movement, some judges I am told are tooth fairys. Just need to put that particular judge on your DNS list. Been there done that.
Vicki-Stormwynd
Our standard reads:
"The teeth are strong and healthy. The molars intermesh properly. The bite is a true scissors bite. A perfect level bite is not desirable and must be penalized. Extreme overshot or undershot disqualifies."
Where in those words does it read a dog must be SEVERELY penalized for missing TWO premolars? I once again pulled out the canine tooth chart and mapped my dog's mouth. In the sentences above, he qualifies in all positive aspects. His teeth are very strong and very clean. He is missing two, side x side, lower left premolars but all of his molars are there and intermesh and has all the teeth to prove a perfect scissor bite. These premolars are tiny and spread out on the jawline so two missing, next to the two existing tiny one's in front of them, may give the illusion of many missing teeth. Of course, the judges don't look on the other side of the mouth either, they stop at those two.
This past Saturday we won BOB and a Group 3 under different judges who've been in the business a long time. On Sunday I was mortified when, another long time judge, went digging through my dogs mouth and then dumped us. When judges do this, he tends to start to resist the bite exam. It's also very disturbing when you pay a handler a good buck only to be told "he would have been the breed winner had it not been for the missing teeth." The best one yet is the judge who said if he were ever kicked in the head by a horse....LOL, REALLY?!?
I travel some good distances to shows so this is very disappointing. Is this right or wrong of judges to "judge to their own standard"? In my experience, I think there are a greater number of Canadian judges counting teeth than American. Are both sides of the border being educated?
Tracy N.
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Enjoy them every minute you have them!
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flatmtn
Posts:4
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| 07/23/2012 1:59 PM |
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In NAVHDA i had judge miscount my NA dogs teeth this year. I sent in some photos and talked with a few folks but the judge is standing behind his judgement as "on that day" the dogs p1 405 was missing. Says by the pics they are there now but must have come in after the test. 1.5 weeks later. He also slightly confused his statements to me from that day with his statements to the owner of another GSP bitch who had unemerged p1 s. So short of getting a correct jugement in his next test i am at a loss. Ticks me off since i know he just miscounted. My lesson from all this is be educated and dont walk away from the test day until they recount correctly.
On Tuesday, June 12, 2012, Tracy Novoa <gspfreak@aol.com> wrote:
> Our standard reads:
>
> "The teeth are strong and healthy. The molars intermesh properly. The bite is a true scissors bite. A perfect level bite is not desirable and must be penalized. Extreme overshot or undershot disqualifies."
>
> Where in those words does it read a dog must be SEVERELY penalized for missing TWO premolars? I once again pulled out the canine tooth chart and mapped my dog's mouth. In the sentences above, he qualifies in all positive aspects. His teeth are very strong and very clean. He is missing two, side x side, lower left premolars but all of his molars are there and intermesh and has all the teeth to prove a perfect scissor bite. These premolars are tiny and spread out on the jawline so two missing, next to the two existing tiny one's in front of them, may give the illusion of many missing teeth. Of course, the judges don't look on the other side of the mouth either, they stop at those two.
>
> This past Saturday we won BOB and a Group 3 under different judges who've been in the business a long time. On Sunday I was mortified when, another long time judge, went digging through my dogs mouth and then dumped us. When judges do this, he tends to start to resist the bite exam. It's also very disturbing when you pay a handler a good buck only to be told "he would have been the breed winner had it not been for the missing teeth." The best one yet is the judge who said if he were ever kicked in the head by a horse....LOL, REALLY?!?
>
> I travel some good distances to shows so this is very disappointing. Is this right or wrong of judges to "judge to their own standard"? In my experience, I think there are a greater number of Canadian judges counting teeth than American. Are both sides of the border being educated?
>
> Tracy N.
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tbrumbaugh
MH
Posts:72
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| 07/23/2012 1:59 PM |
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I have to wonder, is this issue with the teeth common in sporting dogs? I have never myself, owned one with missing teeth. I am wondering, why wouldn't the judge just automatically recount? Unless this is very common? It just reinforces to me the need to ask judges to get continuing education regularly. What is in the education could be provided by parent clubs, or groups like NAVDHA. Warmest Regards
Terry Brumbaugh Endo Surgical Source, Inc 425 Hope Road New Bloomfield, Pa17608
717 503 7012 cell
We Speak Endoscopy! In NAVHDA i had judge miscount my NA dogs teeth this year. I sent in some photos and talked with a few folks but the judge is standing behind his judgement as "on that day" the dogs p1 405 was missing. Says by the pics they are there now but must have come in after the test. 1.5 weeks later. He also slightly confused his statements to me from that day with his statements to the owner of another GSP bitch who had unemerged p1 s. So short of getting a correct jugement in his next test i am at a loss. Ticks me off since i know he just miscounted. My lesson from all this is be educated and dont walk away from the test day until they recount correctly.
On Tuesday, June 12, 2012, Tracy Novoa < gspfreak@aol.com> wrote: > Our standard reads: > > "The teeth are strong and healthy. The molars intermesh properly. The bite is a true scissors bite. A perfect level bite is not desirable and must be penalized. Extreme overshot or undershot disqualifies."
> > Where in those words does it read a dog must be SEVERELY penalized for missing TWO premolars? I once again pulled out the canine tooth chart and mapped my dog's mouth. In the sentences above, he qualifies in all positive aspects. His teeth are very strong and very clean. He is missing two, side x side, lower left premolars but all of his molars are there and intermesh and has all the teeth to prove a perfect scissor bite. These premolars are tiny and spread out on the jawline so two missing, next to the two existing tiny one's in front of them, may give the illusion of many missing teeth. Of course, the judges don't look on the other side of the mouth either, they stop at those two.
> > This past Saturday we won BOB and a Group 3 under different judges who've been in the business a long time. On Sunday I was mortified when, another long time judge, went digging through my dogs mouth and then dumped us. When judges do this, he tends to start to resist the bite exam. It's also very disturbing when you pay a handler a good buck only to be told "he would have been the breed winner had it not been for the missing teeth." The best one yet is the judge who said if he were ever kicked in the head by a horse....LOL, REALLY?!?
> > I travel some good distances to shows so this is very disappointing. Is this right or wrong of judges to "judge to their own standard"? In my experience, I think there are a greater number of Canadian judges counting teeth than American. Are both sides of the border being educated?
> > Tracy N.
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stillskennelsak
MH
Posts:83
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| 07/23/2012 1:59 PM |
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I don't know if this is a true problem in GSPs, but have a friend with Labs and it is in that breed. It has also been seen as a genetic problem there.
Pam Stillman
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shademtngsp
JH
Posts:21
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| 07/23/2012 1:59 PM |
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What I have noticed is that there will be some judges who are real tooth faries. They love to count and do the "lion" look. I believe Rotties are one of those breeds. Their mouth is opened wide and examined if the dog shows any intolerance I have seen judges excuse them. Usually they come from breeds that have disqualifications in regard to missing teeth and they have not totally assimilated our standard. Missing teeth are not ideal - obviously as we have all read our standard. But a bad bite is unacceptable to the overall health of the dog and its ability to do its job.
Educating our judges on the proper exam of the GSP is part of Judges Education. Just like learning to wicket a dog or examine a toy breed. Every breed is different. There is no formula. Having your prospective judges educated by knowledgable people in the breed who they themselves have extensive ring experiance and/or judging experiance certainly is a asset. I love going to breed presentations that are presented by the pillars of the breed. Their first hand knowledge and experiance is immeasureable.
If your young dog doesn't have all it's teeth in yet, then you may wish to reconsider your entry until that happens. Train you dogs to allow a mouth exam, even if it more than is needed by the standard. Allowing anyone to look back there may save their life if something gets stuck, allow you to look for a wedged stick, bad teeth, clean their teeth etc. If your pup is not solid with this, then take you time putting them in the ring so unfortunate things don't happen to them. If a judge is very rough with the entire entry, take a note, and next time rethink if you want to enter under them again. If you are not comfortable discussion what happened personally with the judge, then find the rep and let them know what happened. Hopefully the judge will then have someone discuss with them the proper exam and adjust their methods.
In general, I have rarely seen a full mouth exam done on a GSP. But it does happen.
On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 11:15 AM, Pam Stillman <stillskennelsak@yahoo.com> wrote:
I don't know if this is a true problem in GSPs, but have a friend with Labs and it is in that breed. It has also been seen as a genetic problem there.
Pam Stillman
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chexsix
MH
Posts:313
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| 07/23/2012 1:59 PM |
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| On Jun 12, 2012, at 2:35 PM, Tracy Novoa wrote: Our standard reads: "The teeth are strong and healthy. The molars intermesh properly. The bite is a true scissors bite. A perfect level bite is not desirable and must be penalized. Extreme overshot or undershot disqualifies."
>
> Is this right or wrong of judges to "judge to their own standard"?
According to the AKC Rules, Policies and Guidelines for Conformation Dog Show Judges and the Judging Operations Judging Liaison "no, the judge should judge by the standard". Also as it pertains to the comment, "he would have been the breed winner had it not been for the missing teeth." AKC policy states, "Avoid making inappropriate comments to exhibitors in or out of the ring."
On p. 10 of the AKC Rulebook, Rules and Breed Standards it is the responsibility of the judge to understand and judge according to AKC Rules, Policies, Guidelines and current Standards in effect on the day of their judging assignment. If the decision depends on exact wording, it states not to hesitate to refer to the Rules, Guidelines or breed Standard or discuss the matter with the AKC Executive Field Representative. It also states one can discuss Rule issues with the Superintendent.
Based on his comments after the fact his decision was not made according to "exact wording" in the GSP breed standard.
Also while under judgement GSPs should not be expected to have a full dentition exam as done with some of the working breeds.
Patte Titus
CheckSix Shorthairs
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ASKMEGSP
MH
Posts:184
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| 07/23/2012 1:59 PM |
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I see two sides to this question. Our standard reads: "The teeth
are strong and healthy. The molars intermesh properly. The bite is a true
scissors bite. A perfect level bite is not desirable and must be penalized.
Extreme overshot or undershot disqualifies." How does one tell if the molars intermesh properly if the only thing looked at is the scissors bite ?
Ann
Olde Ridge
-----Original Message-----
From: Titus Nathan
To: gsp-l
Sent: Wed, Jun 13, 2012 10:04 pm
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Teeth Revisited
On Jun 12, 2012, at 2:35 PM, Tracy Novoa wrote: Our standard reads: "The teeth
are strong and healthy. The molars intermesh properly. The bite is a true
scissors bite. A perfect level bite is not desirable and must be penalized.
Extreme overshot or undershot disqualifies."
>
> Is this right or wrong of judges to "judge to their own standard"?
According to the AKC Rules, Policies and Guidelines for Conformation Dog Show
Judges and the Judging Operations Judging Liaison "no, the judge should judge by
the standard". Also as it pertains to the comment, "he would have been the
breed winner had it not been for the missing teeth." AKC policy states, "Avoid
making inappropriate comments to exhibitors in or out of the ring."
On p. 10 of the AKC Rulebook, Rules and Breed Standards it is the responsibility
of the judge to understand and judge according to AKC Rules, Policies,
Guidelines and current Standards in effect on the day of their judging
assignment. If the decision depends on exact wording, it states not to hesitate
to refer to the Rules, Guidelines or breed Standard or discuss the matter with
the AKC Executive Field Representative. It also states one can discuss Rule
issues with the Superintendent.
Based on his comments after the fact his decision was not made according to
"exact wording" in the GSP breed standard.
Also while under judgement GSPs should not be expected to have a full dentition
exam as done with some of the working breeds.
Patte Titus
CheckSix Shorthairs
Unsubscribing: To unsubscribe from the list, send an email message in PLAIN TEXT
to gsp-l-request@web.whc.net with message text of "unsubscribe gsp-l
you@email.add" (replace the email address with yours, don't include the quotes
and note it is a lower case L after the dash in gsp-l).
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bajnok
MH
Posts:67
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| 07/23/2012 1:59 PM |
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And how can molars “intermesh” if they are missing in the first place?
That said, this is one small part of the whole standard. Hopefully we are
looking for judges who will judge the whole of the dog, not just dog parts 
François
Bernier
Bajnok GSPs
www.bajnok.net
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 10:09 PM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] Teeth Revisited
I see two sides to this question. Our standard reads: "The teeth
are strong and healthy. The molars intermesh properly. The bite
is a true
scissors bite. A perfect level bite is not desirable and
must be penalized.
Extreme overshot or undershot
disqualifies." How does one tell if the molars intermesh properly if
the only thing looked at is the scissors bite ?
Ann
Olde Ridge
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chexsix
MH
Posts:313
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| 07/23/2012 1:59 PM |
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On Jun 14, 2012, at 3:14 AM, Francois Bernier wrote: And how can molars “intermesh” if they are missing in the first place?
With the mouth shut, simply lift the lip and look at the opposite side.
That said, this is one small part of the whole standard. Hopefully we are looking for judges who will judge the whole of the dog, not just dog parts.
So true, but unfortunately some will "fault judge" parts to arrive at their decision.
Attached are two pictures of the molars that don't intermesh and one that they do…
Patte Titus
CheckSix Shorthairs
 Correct Intermesh
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