Smylinacha
Connecticut
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Posts:1208
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| 06/11/2012 11:16 AM |
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Well as of yesterday both dogs blew it w/ the e collar. My fault for them blowing it as I wasn't paying attention. They are so prey driven I should have known better. We started down the gravel driveway for our walk. I noticed Velvet going into point mode and Windsor's ears were perked. I first corrected Velvet with the tone and said Heal which normally does the trick. She didn't care so I "corrected" her after that - she still didn't care. Tried on Windsor and he didn't care either. They were eerily calm but I could tell something is now up. I should have had them both by my side but I had them 6 feet leashed in front of me. I saw a squirrel and said, "Hmmmmm, they don't get this nutty over a squirrel" but then right before my eyes a huge deer leaped from one side of the driveway across into the woods on the other side. Both dogs pulled me into the creek and I couldn't hold them. I was covered in muddy slop but managed to get them back with another e collar correction. No big deal, I was pissed but figured I'll dry out and walk anyway. I got them back but soon enough the darn deer jumped over the driveway again behind me and they both took off, spinning me around and dragging me about 10 feet. I have serious road rash on my right palm, my left leg is all scraped up. I think I fractured my big toe (nor more walking them in Krocks) cuz it hurts to walk on it and my left hip is bruised. Spent the evening picking little stones out of my hand, put on peroxide and neosporin and bandaged it up. I won't be walking them for a while until some skin grows back. I can't do anything using the palm of my right hand. But on a good note, after they got away, they came back. So I guess the collar works getting them back and I have to hold them steadier and pay more attention to all the wild life in our yard. It's a daily hassle w/ the deer. Getting my bow hunting license as soon as I heal up as we can't shoot in the yard (neighbors too close). |
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smatulewicz
Michigan
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Posts:1188
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| 06/11/2012 11:56 AM |
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Oh my goodness. Bless your heart. I wish you a speedy healing (skin regrowing). I would be lying if, as you wrote it so well, I didn't get a little snicker out picturing the scene...only because I can only imagine. And, almost as if the deer was just taunting them leaping back over.
I can hardly keep Bella off chippies - I can't even imagine what she is going to do when she encounters her first deer. |
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Nancy D
No. Lower MI - Gaylord Area
MH
Posts:849
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| 06/11/2012 12:19 PM |
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Oh Lord, Lady, what an experience. I'm just glad to hear you're all in one piece and no serious breaks. I wouldn't even think about walking 2 GSP's. They're little, well compared to a dobe, but definitely mighty. Lucy can give me a good yank when she suddenly sees a chippie, squirrel, etc. I think she'd go nuts if she saw a deer. That would be the icing on the cake so to speak.
Feel better soon. |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
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| 06/11/2012 12:55 PM |
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Thank goodness it wasn't worse.
Now, let's fix this.
How did you collar condition them to stimulation?
What level where you using when this happened?
Did you use continuous stim?
As I tell my daughter - if there is any doubt LET GO!
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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mjbuck
Hancock, MI
MH
Posts:144
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| 06/11/2012 1:40 PM |
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| We have deer in our yard every day and most are very close to the house, within 15 yards at times. Knowing this, very early on I taught Sadie the do's and do nots when it comes to deer. While I will never claim she is the most diciplined dog around, when it comes to deer, she's got it figured out. The latest example is when she walked around the corner of the house and my father-in-law said you better check on your dog because she saw something and went out of sight. I walked around the corner and here was a big doe in a stare-down with Sadie from about 30 feet away. The deer didn't spook (they are used to us) and Sadie was stiff as a board, but I called her off (no e-collar) and she came back to me, still stiff as a board and shaking violently (excitement). The deer walked off and Sadie went about her business. It was a defining moment for us. |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7835
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| 06/11/2012 1:46 PM |
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Ouch!! I had Halo pull me down years ago when she got after a rabbit. I had bruised and separated ribs. Yep, it hurts. I agree with pixie. Now we need to get it fixed. It is actually pretty easy to do. One of the reasons I do not use a beep, and only use stimulation. Remember, these dogs are smart and if the reward is high value, they can and will ignore the beep. I also use a continuous stim in teaching them not to chase fur. We have allot of deer around, so setting them up with deer is easy. Other types of fur animals are harder. However, I hike in CO with the dogs and I definitely do not want them chasing a momma bear. So, if they alert (and it is different for fur than it is for birds) I watch them and when they make a move, I use my recall and then use constant stim if they ignore. I will not let off the stim until they turn back to me. They learn pretty quick not to chase the deer.
Also, if it is a new animal that they have never seen before, I can use the recall to call them back to me and they respond. This is where the bear thing comes into the picture.
Pixie may use a little different method, but you need to use something before the dogs hurt you again. I read once that shorthairs were pound for pound the strongest breed, and I believe it. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
   
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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Smylinacha
Connecticut
MH
Posts:1208
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| 06/11/2012 1:48 PM |
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Actuallly, thinking back at it I must have been a hoot if I had a human audience! Bet I would have won a prize on America's Funniest Home Video  Looking back, besides the removal of the skin on my hand, it must have been funny looking. Heck, if I saw that, I'd be laughing. Hubby didn't see anything - he went away and it was his first full day back so he was cutting the grass.
Hubby was gone for 3 days and they have been complete angels with me and I've been walking them by myself. Normally my husband does the walking as I cook dinner and occasionally I go with him but during the work week he has to walk them so I can cook or do laundry or get something done.
So with the collars when I walk them, normally I use a 6 foot leash with the traffic collar holder part and NORMALLY I hold them by that as we go down the driveway and their collars are on very snug and high by the ears. I have the zapper hanging around my neck - long string so the actual tone/zapper fits right in my left hand. They only get leash slack when the leash is loose which it normally is once we get out of the driveway - a few tones and they calm right down and get into the walk. But I didn't initially hold them this way - they seemed calm and I trusted that - shoulda coulda woulda - I learned not to let my guard down like I did - 6 foot of leash and woods with deer equals STUPIDITY.
It's a Tritronics G3 Sport Basic and it can switch from Red (Velvet) to Black (Windsor). Collar was set to 2.5. I think I set it to 3 when we initially trained Windsor with it and it was very strong for him. 2.5 is normally it and we never ran into a deer this close on a walk before. It was almost like the deer was intentionally trying to piss me and my dogs off. It was making snarling noises the second time when it bounded over the driveway.
They were trained where if their ears aren't back and they are starting to focus elswhere besides walking they would get a tone. That would slow them right down to heal. If there was a squirrel or a cat they might not pay attention to the tone so they would get the zap at 2.5 following the tone and Velvet and Windsor would immediately notice the correction and behave (neither would yelp). If you put it on 3 they would. And we've had good luck with that.
Even in the back yard they wear the collars and they come when I call them. Very well behaved with these on until yesterday. Both collars were fully charged because they had them on for the rest of the evening and behaved. Guess they just hate deer - just like I do This big one has been hanging around for a while - I'm gonna get him - He's on my bucket list |
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Splat
Illinois (Northern)
MH
Posts:3130
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| 06/11/2012 1:49 PM |
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| Hope you recover quickly... Doesn't sound like you had a nice relaxing walk at all, better luck next time! |
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Smylinacha
Connecticut
MH
Posts:1208
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| 06/11/2012 2:30 PM |
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| Bev, when you mean constant Stim if they don't listen on recall - you mean constant correction (zap)? I have 3 buttons - a tone, a C button for Correct I guess, and a M button where it corrects a little longer - I want to make sure I'm doing this right and want them strictly trained to this so I don't lose any more skin! |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7835
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| 06/11/2012 2:38 PM |
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| On my unit if I hold the button down it gives a constant stim and does not stop unless I let up on the button. I have the Tritronics Pro, so I am not sure if yours works the same way or not. So, I hold down the button until they look or turn toward me (the first indication that they are coming back to me), then I release the stim. Also, if they do not react to the constant stim, turn it up a notch or until they turn towards you. For some things I have had to turn it up. Also each dog is a bit different. Some react to a low setting, but some require a higher setting. For Halo when we snake trained her, we had to go all the way up to an 8 setting which really packs a wallop, but she was so focused on the snake it just took that much to break her concentration. She has a very strong ability to focus and concentrate and also has a very high prey drive. I didn't think I would find a dog with higher prey drive, but her daughter, Fauna, is worse. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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Splat
Illinois (Northern)
MH
Posts:3130
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| 06/11/2012 3:59 PM |
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on my unit I have buzz which is just sound
then I have C (continuous) which mean if you hold t down it will keep zapping for up to 8 seconds
then I have M (manual?) which means even if you hold it down it only zaps once... |
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Smylinacha
Connecticut
MH
Posts:1208
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| 06/11/2012 6:15 PM |
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Ok.....I will hold it down and try continuous. Usually when they getthe zap they do not look at me but they usually "twitch" and then snap out of it. Maybe I need to try continuous first and/or turn it up as well. I won't be walking for a while. Even my husband sai d I did a number on myself.
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
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| 06/11/2012 6:35 PM |
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Is this the extent of your ecollar training?
They were trained where if their ears aren't back and they are starting to focus elswhere besides walking they would get a tone. That would slow them right down to heal. If there was a squirrel or a cat they might not pay attention to the tone so they would get the zap at 2.5 following the tone and Velvet and Windsor would immediately notice the correction and behave (neither would yelp). If you put it on 3 they would. And we've had good luck with that.
You need to do further training.
All is not lost.
AND DON"T BLAME THE DEER!
He offered you a great training opportunity and you learned a LOT from this.
And the learning continues!
First I would collar condition the HERE.
Then to SIT, the to DOWN.
(first be certain these comands are familiar)
Then you can re-enforce inside and outside.
Re-enforce on squirrels,cats,fetch games,etc.
Go for a walk, command sit,down etc and keep walking - re -enforce w/o the collar at first to teach the concept, then intro the collar. Once the dogs get this, then do it at a jog and a run and each time run further past the dog.
Pressure is released once the correct behavior is performed.
Start out low and work your way higher, read the dog, know when you've hit the highest the dog will effectivelyperform at then begin to scalle back down.
If you are unsure go to someone who knows how to correctly use an ecollar.
But really make sure they know how to use it.
I believe the Pro100 stops giving cont stim after a few seconds (8 or 9?)
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Willowglen
Fort Collins, CO
MH
Posts:216
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| 06/11/2012 6:47 PM |
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| I have nothing to add but OUCH!!! I can sympathize with losing all the skin on your palm. I was running late for the group ring and thought I'd run to it with Jasper on his show lead. He decided to zig when I zagged and I ended up doing a face plant on a gravel parking lot. I can definitely relate to the pain as I lost all the skin on my right palm. Wishing you a speedy recovery!!! |
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Christine
Willow Glen GSPs & Weimaraners
www.willowglengsp.com
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Smylinacha
Connecticut
MH
Posts:1208
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| 06/11/2012 6:48 PM |
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Thanks Pixie Bee! They are both familiar with those commands..... Velvet can be stubborn at times though. Windsor will sit, stay and stop on command if there are no distractions. I will reinforce out back in the yard.....off leash since I won't be holding one for a while. I am also going to train indoors with the collar. So.... especially Velvet, if I say Sit and she doesn't, I stimulate her until she does? At what correction level? I don't blame the deer, I blame myself. But I still am sick of them as we can't garden outside....they eat everything. Imight be able to try the leash but left handed? I literally am missing skin on my lower right palm.
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Smylinacha
Connecticut
MH
Posts:1208
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| 06/11/2012 6:51 PM |
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Ouch Christine! I watched how Bad my friends new pitbull is and thought my two dogs were a walk in the park, but after yesterday.....Not. I have some learning to do!
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mjbuck
Hancock, MI
MH
Posts:144
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| 06/11/2012 7:44 PM |
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I posted earlier about my dog, but forgot to wish you fast healing. Hope all gets better quickly. I see daily how strong my dog is and can imagine the power with two.
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
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| 06/12/2012 4:37 AM |
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DISCLAIMER:I am NOT a pro trainer, all my training material comes from pro trainers, I have had success-you may not.
Having an injury will actually make you a better trainer b/c now the dogs HAVE to obey or you will get hurt more.
Your self preservation drive will kick in and you will force the dogs to cooperate and obey out of this.
In the TRAINING forum under ecollars and GSPs, one of my posts has a link to teach collar conditioning to HERE.
Use this as a guide and move on from there.
Basically how it works is this:
the dog has 2 long leashes,there are 2 people,you can use a pole and work both leashes if you are alone. One person walks the dog, say 30 feet and the other then calls the dog enthusiastically and the dog comes running. This is repeated several times. Now when the dog is called the person adds a little pressure to the leash and the dog has to work a little to get to the other person. This is repeated several times with the leash being held tighter each time, the last few times the leash is not restrained.
OK - now we get to the ecallar part. Since we are not there to see your dog lets say you start at level 1. Person walks off with dog, other calls the dog and presses continuous until the dog is well on its way. Other person takes dog back. Ecollar is turned up next notch and repeated. This is where it gets sticky - the person needs to know when it's too high - you can't go by a vocalization from the dog b/c a lot of times the dog can work thru it and this is one of the points of the exercise.
So, you will need to determine what is too much.
you then work the same exercise as w/o the collar but scale down the dial. Don't forget to have the person add tension to the leash and use stim until the dog is on its way to you.
Now, everytime you go out the collar is on. Have the dog off leash and call adding stim until the dog is well on its way. If you think it was a good response but the dog didn't feel the ecollar, wait a few minutes, like 10 and repeat but raise it a notch. the point is that the dog needs to understand that it needs to perfrom under the distraction of the stim and that it needs to come each time.
A dog that is slow to perform is a dog flipping us the paw. the ecollar is used to get quick responses.
NOW - you can use clicker/marker training for this, too.
The only difference is the dog never gets to work thru real pressure.
I feel the real presure from the ecollar creates a type of work ethic in a dog.
deer don't eat azalea bushes,try those.
if I say Sit and she doesn't, I stimulate her until she does?
i would say SIT and add stim at the same time.
If the dog doesn't get it - walk over and give a push on their tush.
They pick up fast.
repeat next time with a lttle higher stim and help when needed.
Feel free to add treats for a job well done - maybe even throw a fetch toy as a reward.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Max2
Oneonta NY
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Posts:1107
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| 06/12/2012 5:54 AM |
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Posted Guess they just hate deer - just like I do ![<img src=]() " align="absMiddle" src="/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/blue/emoticons/smile.gif" /> This big one has been hanging around for a while - I'm gonna get him - He's on my bucket list ![<img src=]() " align="absMiddle" src="/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/blue/emoticons/smile.gif" />
( The smile is for you getting him !) It's not that they hate the deer . I would have gambled that if they were able to chase it would have been a short chase more of a sight chase. Still a scary thing to witness especially if roads & danger are near. Hope your healing up for round 2
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pixie bee
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Posts:4448
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