DuckFever
Central Oregon
MH
Posts:321
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| 06/05/2012 3:45 PM |
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So the first 3 or 4 days I had Rowdy, he retrieved naturally and I only gave the "fetch" command when I was 100% positive he was on his way back with the dummy. Now, he stopped bringing it back, although he still runs ever-so-enthusiastically out to the dummy, but then starts to lie down and chew on it. Once in a while he will bring it back now, instead of before bringing it back 9.5 out of 10 times. Today I put him on a check chord (he's 11 weeks exactly) and threw the dummy about 10 feet from him. He went out to get it and when it was obvious he wasn't bringing it back but had it in his mouth, I pulled on the chord and gave the "fetch" command. I repeated this twice and the second time he came willingly after an initial tug on the chord. I just wanted to see if this is the correct way to go about getting him to retrieve. I'm not doing anything too hardcore until 12 weeks, but he knows sit and stay and will even stay in the sitting position when I walk into the other room out of site, before I give the "come" command. My main thing is I just want to be sure I'm doing the check chord retriever training correctly. I was raised all my life with GSPs, but this is the first GSP of my own. Appreciate the input.
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The worst day of hunting is better than the best day at work. |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 06/05/2012 5:03 PM |
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I'm not doing anything too hardcore until 12 weeks
Hardcore?
Oh my, this sounds scary.
Have you considered investing in a training program?
Research Evan Graham. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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DuckFever
Central Oregon
MH
Posts:321
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| 06/05/2012 5:29 PM |
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Not hardcore. Just hardcore compared to puppy pre-school training. Once he's 12 weeks I plan on starting him on simple 10 minute sessions, twice per day. I have a few books on training that provide programs. One is "How to Help Gun Dogs Train Themselves" by Joan Bailey. Another is "Gun Dog" by Richard Wolters. |
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The worst day of hunting is better than the best day at work. |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 06/05/2012 7:08 PM |
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First and foremost - Gun Dogs is not such a good book for pointers.
He was a retriever guy who had lots of success in the retriever world and tried to max that in the pointer world. Didn't really make the splash he wanted it to.
10 minute sessions, twice a day?- maybe - what do the sessions consist of?
I do 10 minute sessions with dogs over 12 months but not younger and I only do longer sessions depending on what I am working on with a particular dog. Not that Im a pro - but something to consider,anyway.
If you are working on natural ability - I feel you can't over do that.
If you are teaching obedience - then 10 minutes may be too long at 3 months old.
I don't view Joan Bailey's book as an actual program.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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DuckFever
Central Oregon
MH
Posts:321
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| 06/05/2012 7:27 PM |
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I appreciate the input. Training would consist of retrieving wings attached to dummies, whoa training, heel on a leash, introduction to water, et cetera. I definitely plan on making the training fun for Rowdy, and not work. What would you recommend in terms of training. Without rushing him, I definitely want him to gain experience in the field this year. Chukar, dove, ducks, quail, pheasant, grouse, etc. By no means do I expect serious hunting ability at 6 - 8 months, just exposure to wild birds. Again, I definitely appreciate the input Pixie. |
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The worst day of hunting is better than the best day at work. |
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smatulewicz
Michigan
MH
Posts:1194
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| 06/05/2012 8:35 PM |
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| My guess is he has learned that he loses his prize (momentarily) when he brings it back to you. To keep it fun and interesting for Bella, while teaching fetch (and there isn't much to teach they do it naturally as you have found, the trick is just making them want to include you in the game) I did a few things. Early on, I didn't require her to sit or do anything for the next throw, I threw immediately after a praise. Seriously, at your pups age, for teaching fetch and come... Dont be afraid to be a total nut and throw an absolute party for your pup when he comes to you. Now that she is older I interchange some sit/wait and then retrieving on command, but you can build to that. I also swapped out sometimes... Return for a treat and then another throw (or I had another toy available to throw immediately... Helps if they squeak to get their attention and encourage them to you) (double win for them if they bring it back). Fetch is her go get command, bring it is the bring back command. I don't always use it. This allows her chances to take her victory lap if I don't mind. So sometimes if she brought back I would take it and then praise and say "you may have" so she got some play time out of it... And you may just find after a couple of victory laps he brings it back to you for another throw. You want to keep it fun this early on. We also taught "hand" for a hand deliver... She is never praised for bringing it and dropping it at feet. If she does we say hand and she picks it back up for a hand delivery. If you plan to hunt... You'll want this hand deliver. This early on, you may have to assist him to make the hand delivery, but he will catch on fast. |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7851
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| 06/05/2012 11:19 PM |
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| Hmm, I would lighten up a bit and have some fun making a game of training. You have plenty of time to train more formally when he is a bit older, but they are puppies such a short time. Enjoy that time while you can. I would also recommend finding a mentor to work with. From your list of birds you will need to train several types of hunting. Doves and ducks are very different from quail, pheasant or chukar. If this is your first time training a pointing breed you might want to check out Perfect Start and Perfect Finish videos. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
   
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 06/06/2012 4:31 AM |
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I know I can harp on this but
Teach before you train.
I think you can expect serious hunting from him this season on upland birds.
Doves and ducks may require a more delicate approach. Such as controlling the amount of gunfire,controlling how close he is to the guns,using a check cord to hold him back, having a more experienced dog along to make the majority of the retrieves - basically,the first season is on the job training.
One thing he needs to learn is that not every retrieve is his.
I don't know how much duck hunting you will be doing, but you may want to consider directional commands.
This is where programs like PS/PF fall short.
Check out Milner,Graham and Lardy, also Pat Nolan - there's plenty of stuff on youtube.
I would focus the bulk of my time on romps in fields and encouraging cooperation - at this age. Sure, you can intro whoa,fetching,sit,down,etc - all fun at this age - no pressure.
Depending on the maturity level of a dog we can begin to add pressure as early as 6 months old.
Have you decided if you will be doing a form of force fetch training?
Don't overlook the benefits of cooperation and team work - obedience is good - but not the end all - especialliy for a hunting dog.
Sounds like you guys have a busy summer a head of you.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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DuckFever
Central Oregon
MH
Posts:321
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| 06/06/2012 10:35 AM |
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| If any I plan on using the light pinch on the ear and then lots of praise when the dummy is in his mouth. Do you have a favorite method of force retrieving? The check chord seemed to work yesterday, but at only 11 weeks old I would definitely hold off using the ear pinch method. |
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The worst day of hunting is better than the best day at work. |
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smatulewicz
Michigan
MH
Posts:1194
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| 06/06/2012 12:21 PM |
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I only used a check cord to ensure I could enforce a command I gave... But your dog needs to understand what the command is before it can obey it. If your retrieve command is "fetch" I would throw, give whatever your release command is, and once he has it... Give the fetch command and try some of the things I mentioned before. If he is less interested in coming, try walking backward when he tuna your way and you say "fetch". Most puppies this age can't resist a good chase. For training this early, it helps to be more his level so build up to standing durin fetch and for now sit or kneel. The check cord you will use now to gently reel him in if need be. At 11 weeks I'm not sure you an rely on one little yank and have him understand that. You also want to stay away from saying commands numerous times hen teaching them. You want your pup to learn the command is "fetch" and not "fetch, fetch feeeetch".
I'm confused by the war pinch... What is it you are using that for? |
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smatulewicz
Michigan
MH
Posts:1194
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| 06/06/2012 12:23 PM |
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| Ugh, iPhone typo mess as usual. I'm confused by the *ear pinch* |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 06/06/2012 12:42 PM |
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I would reel him in rather than yank.
But, your real issue is that he doesn't understand nor is he in a position to understand or be corrected for - the HERE command.
That's why gently reeling him in is the best way right now.
As far a picking up the item - well he's young - if you get one or two pick ups - leave it at that.
Chase is easy b/c thats prey drive.
I don't know what you mean by 'light ear pinch'?
The ear pinch is not about causing pain - it's about getting the proper response from a dog then turning off the ear pressure when the proper response is given. This is called pressure conditioning.
Some dogs require a strong pinch simply b/c they do not feel it.
You can do your research as to when you want to collar condition and there are differering opinions on what that actually is - so do your HW and get a plan going.
I like the SmartFetch method.
Do your research. Find training methods that agree with your training philosophies and style.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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DuckFever
Central Oregon
MH
Posts:321
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| 06/06/2012 3:04 PM |
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Thank you both for your replies as they have been very helpful. As for the ear pinch I have continually heard from books and experienced dog trainers that a lighter ear pinch will produce results faster than a hard ear pinch. The idea is to make the ear pinch just uncomfortable enough that the dog opens its mouth to get the dummy. I have heard a hard ear pinch will often produce counterproductive results. I will check out the SmartFetch method. |
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The worst day of hunting is better than the best day at work. |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 06/06/2012 5:17 PM |
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I said-
The ear pinch is not about causing pain - it's about getting the proper response from a dog then turning off the ear pressure when the proper response is given. This is called pressure conditioning.
Some dogs require a strong pinch simply b/c they do not feel it.
The proper amount of ear pinch - pressure - is the one that achievs the proper response from the dog.
as a side note - there are methods that do advocate that a dog must squeal in order for the 'force' part of force fetch to work.
I do not support this view.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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DuckFever
Central Oregon
MH
Posts:321
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| 06/06/2012 5:33 PM |
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| I also was just a few hours ago given a book titled "Retriever Puppy Training" although it looks meant for labs. Will give it a read. |
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The worst day of hunting is better than the best day at work. |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 06/07/2012 6:12 AM |
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What you need to know is what do you expect from your dog.
What kind of range are you looking for in his field search? what is his range now, his prey drive level and cooperation level?
Where most people fail is in balancing the training. It takes experience to do this correctly. It took me 2 dogs to figure it out and I'm still not sure how it will work with the next dog.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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DuckFever
Central Oregon
MH
Posts:321
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| 06/07/2012 11:33 AM |
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| I agree, that's the hard part is reading the dog. The sire of Rowdy is really rangy but lock solid on point and the dam stays relatively close but is very thorough in her field searches. I don't mind if he's rangy as long as he's hard on point. |
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The worst day of hunting is better than the best day at work. |
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