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mckee.lucie Seattle, WA
 MH Posts:99


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| 05/14/2012 8:56 PM |
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Hi there! It's been a little while since we've posted with our Luna, starting the spring in Washington State with lots of great hiking and outdoor activities keeping us plenty busy. Will have to upload some pictures and video soon. In the meantime my husband and I really need your thoughts/feedback on an issue that has recently developed over the past several months with our Luna bear. She is a year and half now.
Luna has been an amazing dog and still is, but in the past few months probably from age 10/11 months up thru now she's gotten snappier with other dogs when on leash or in a group of dogs. She's been well socialized with friends dogs, dog parks, neighbors dogs and has always done well. It started all with her getting into a snappy outlash when she'd be in a situation where she's surrounded by more than one other dog and seems to feel "intimidated" even when the other dogs are wagging their tails and to me seem to be giving off a very friendly and playful behavior. More recently she has also become this way with dogs she comes accross on walks. Regardless of the size of the dog or breed if we stop for more than 5 seconds or so for just a sniff as you walk by she will start to gnarl her lip and I know a snappy outlash is going so I quickly grab her and move on. Not only is it embarassing and but it's a behavior that I'm not sure how to fix. We need your help! She's never hurt another dog and I want to do everything we can to turn this behavior around and work on it.
My husband and I have thought about enrolling into some of dog classes/obedience that is close by and we've heard great reviews. She does great with commands and leash walking, but we figured maybe we could work on the issue while practicing these in a controlled environment with other dogs. Not sure if this is a good/bad idea...just a thought.
We apprecaite any feedback you may have! Thank you in advance! I should say though that with any person babies to the elderly she is an absolute angel and LOVES every human whom acknowledges her. |
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weerubbertummy Ayrshire, Scotland
 MH Posts:491


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| 05/15/2012 5:22 AM |
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Sorry to hear that you're having problems and unfortunately i cant give specific advice. But what springs to mind with me is that Kintra, who would lie down in submission whenever she met a dog, went through a stage when she was slightly older, approx 18 months, where she would try to dominate other dogs instead. I always got the impression she was just experimenting or gaining confidence but wasnt really sure how to use it when meeting other dogs. Maybe Luna's going through a similar testy teenage stage? Also, we've moved to an intermediate puppy obedience/socialisation class and whilst the "students" are training, other young dogs with aggression or dominance problems are allowed in the secluded area and walk about on-leash to desensitize them in the first instance. The relief on the owners faces is evident after they see their dogs gradually pay less attention to other dogs being around. I know it's difficult when they develop new (temporary) unwanted behaviour and it's easy to panic about reinforcing it accidentally (i'm neurotic about it!). I'm sure because she's still so young that it'll be easily remedied - good luck x |
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Miss you forever Kintra baby xxx |
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weerubbertummy Ayrshire, Scotland
 MH Posts:491


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| 05/15/2012 5:23 AM |
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Sorry, me again - double post  |
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Miss you forever Kintra baby xxx |
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everbell Kanata, ON
 MH Posts:2860


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| 05/15/2012 5:41 AM |
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Lucie, is Luna spayed? I wonder if that could be a problem. Also they do go through a tricky period (anywhere from 8 to about 14 months) where they seem to test your last nerve. More obedience training (to give her more confidence) may be useful.
BTW -- Luna is a lovely young girl  |
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Joce and Rich Bogart and Shiraz (GSPs) Roxane (RIP: 1995-2009) and Tiger Lily (Cats) The Everbell Adventures |
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kpwlee Raleigh, NC
 MH Posts:532


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| 05/15/2012 5:41 AM |
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I strongly recommend getting a book called Scaredy Dog. It sounds very much to me like leash reactivity which isn't about aggression, it's about fear. She is lashing out in attempt to get the other dogs to back off, because she is fearful. Basically it's 'fight or flight' and on leash flight isn't an option. That book lays it out really well and shows you how to work with her. I cannot encourage you more to get that book and start working with her. I used it after Bugsy was attacked by an truly aggressive dog and he became leash reactive. He has never returned to the completely unflappable dog he was before that incident but he had become reactive towards pretty much every dog and now I would say its super rare for him to react. Classes may be very helpful too as they may build her confidence which in turn reduces her fears near other dogs. You may even find some "control unleashed" classes which would be helpful too. Please keep in mind it is a behavior born of fear not aggression Good luck and give her a belly rub for me! |
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It's Bugsy's world... http://dailyzoomie.blogspot.com/ |
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pixie bee
 MH Posts:4118


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| 05/15/2012 6:41 AM |
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I agree with kpwlee. What you are witnessing is insecurity - she is in fear/defense drive. You may see a heightening of this behavior as you approach 18 months - 2years old. My advice would be to intervene NOW. Best way I know is to have a dog off leash when appraoching other dogs,if the other dog is on leash - keep walking and AVOID getting too close. This is a good exercise: take her to a place where other dogs are. "park" yourselves in an area where you are about 50 feet or so, but this will depend on Luna, and down her,stay in the down for at least 30 minutes,watching other dogs go by,play,etc and if someone wants to approach ask them to please stay back - she is in training for the down command. As she gets better you can drop the leash, walk around,talk to others - ask for the time,then advance to unhooking her, then move closer to activities,BUT advance slowly and be prepared for some good days and some bad days. Don't talk to her other than to reinforce the down,sit is not good enough,when she is behaving really,really good and is RELAXED, you can give a few strokes on the neck/head. When a dog enters the picture walk around IN FRONT/BETWEEN Luna and the dog - this way Luna feels a sense of protection. This CAN be worked thru - it takes time. I have not read this book - I will have to add it to my library of doggie books. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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mckee.lucie Seattle, WA
 MH Posts:99


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| 05/15/2012 7:09 AM |
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Thank you everyone for your suggestions. Luna was spayed at 6 months. I'm reassured by what you all say that it seems like it may be a stage and something we can work thru. I just want to make sure we catch this early and intervene right away. It too, to me seems not like aggression and more so fear/submissiveness based. She really is the most loving and friendly dog when she knows the dog and plays amazing, it's just those she doesn't know that she acts this way. Since she was a puppy from about age 6 months on has always layed down when she sees a dog approach on a leash and refuses to move or budge until they'd pass. And from what you all say she seems this seems to describe exactly what she's doing as in almost getting into a defensive position now that she'll snap and lung for the passing dog if we waver too long. She's never been bitten by another dog or had a dog be aggressive to her so I'm not sure what the fearfulness/aggressiveness is based from or if it's just a age stage. kpwlee - thanks for the advice on the book. I will definitely look into getting it. and Pixie bee too thank you for the suggestions..we'll give that a try. In the meantime when we're on walks and she does this (lays down and refuses to budge to the sense that I'd have to literally pick her up to move or get a little snappy) anything you suggest I do until we get thru this behavior? I looked into our local classes here and they have a thing on their site about fearful dogs that may react towards others are not allowed in the classes. I think it would be good for her, but I feel like maybe they wouldn't let us in with this behavior. Maybe I don't mention it and keep her close? |
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Splat Illinois (Northern)
 MH Posts:2572


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| 05/15/2012 7:27 AM |
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| I was just gonna second or third the insecurity and say obiedence really helps with that... |
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 http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=2553 http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=2554 |
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pixie bee
 MH Posts:4118


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| 05/15/2012 8:31 AM |
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By you allowing her to lay down on he rown, sends the message that she needs to take control/protect herself in the only way she can. Anticipate her reaction and her the sit command. The more you appear to be in charge the more secure she will feel. Also, make sure you are not behind her shoulder - be at her shoulder or ahead of her,not in front of her - you don't want to block her view,just ahead of her. This way the perception is - the one in front leads and the one behind follows. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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DLord Holly Springs, NC
Posts:7


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| 05/15/2012 10:13 AM |
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Lucie, I had the same problem develop with Archer. Archer and Zoe are litter mates and I got Zoe at 8 wks but did not get Archer until he was 10 months old (the breeder was having personal problems and had to give him up). He was perfectly fine with other dogs and then all of a sudden when he turned a year old in Feb. he started lunging and barking at other dogs when we would be out on a walk. One of the local vets has a "day-school" that I enrolled him in. The trainer observed him and told me the first two times I took him that he is not dog aggressive he just does not know how to play or what to do with other dogs and he is insecure and that he needs to get his confidence built up. He did fine the first 3 times I took him and then the 4th time I decided to take Zoe along. Well, that's when the dog aggression came out - he does not want any other dog messing with Zoe, very jealous! The trainer said that day he got several "time-outs". I took them both again last week and the trainer said he did wonderful - played great with everybody did not have any issues and she thinks he's starting to "get it". I'm going to continue taking them both in hopes that it will build his confidence - I can already see a big difference, he is no longer lunging or barking at other dogs when we go on our walks.
You may want to research and see if there are any facilities near you that offer this type of program. I drop him off in the morning, he gets about 3-4 hours of one-on-one training with the trainer (basic commands, sit, down, loose leash walking, etc.) and then he gets 4 supervised play sessions throughout the day with other dogs. And let me just say that he is one "pooped pup" when I pick him up after work!
One thing the trainer had brought up to me is that some of his displays of aggression could be that he is protecting me and Zoe. Do you think maybe Luna is being protective of you?
I hope things work out - I really know what you're going through! |
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Texas Belle Austin, TX
 MH Posts:6936


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| 05/15/2012 10:20 AM |
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I agree with what pixie and kpwlee have said. As for the obedience class I would call them and talk to them and be honest with them. Tell them what you are having problems with and see if they have suggestions about either another class or someone who can help you work through this issue. If you can't find a class, work the obedience on your own. Go to places where you might see other dogs like a pet shop and work obedience in there. Just stay aware of other dogs and keep your distance at first. It will also be very distracting so be prepared for enforcing any commands and don't forget to reward. Also, I would work on focus. Get her watching you instead of everything around her. This is hard at first because of distractions, but ask her to watch you and reward when she does. Build up the length of time. You can always then use that to break her focus on other dogs if you need too. My puppy girl went through a fear period very similar to what your Luna is going through whenever she was on a leash. I would make her sit and watch me when other dogs approached. I also did not allow the other owners and dogs to get to close (I just told them we were working and couldn't play). I did this for several months until she started relaxing. Even now I do not like a large group of dogs coming up to my dogs whenever mine are on a leash. It can be scary when you have a one on many situation. So what I do is stay aware of my surroundings and when owners and dogs are approaching, I have them sit and I position myself much as pixie suggested. My dogs have stay until the other dogs and owners pass. It works pretty good too as most dogs and owners do not approach, but walk by and complement me on my well behaved dogs. I have never allowed strange dogs and people to approach my dogs either as I am always a bit worried about the behavior of other dogs I do not know. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
  
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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DLord Holly Springs, NC
Posts:7


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| 05/16/2012 1:07 PM |
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This is Archer - does this sweet face look like it could be aggressive??

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pixie bee
 MH Posts:4118


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| 05/17/2012 4:37 AM |
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It's not aggressivness It's fearfulness - they are in defense drive how it works: anxiety turns to frustration, frustration turns to aggressiveness - self preservation |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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mckee.lucie Seattle, WA
 MH Posts:99


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| 05/17/2012 6:57 AM |
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DLord - Archer looks like a sweetheart...definitely doesn't look like he has a mean bone in his body We'll be working with Luna more this weekend on her fearfulness and incorporating the sitting and focusing during our walks already. I'll be sure to keep you all updated on how she's doing and when we have hiccups. Thanks for all your wonderful feedback. |
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pixie bee
 MH Posts:4118


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| 05/17/2012 7:36 AM |
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quote]One thing the trainer had brought up to me is that some of his displays of aggression could be that he is protecting me and Zoe. I was not going to address this, but I thought maybe it would spark futher thought. It is easy to rationalize a situation - humans are great at doing this. For some - this seems like an "out" - Ok, the dog is protecting me/the pack - what a great dog I have yada,yada Truth is - this is nothing to be proud of - for the most part. Not saying you feel this way - I'm speaking in general Reason this is not as good as it sounds is b/c people may dismiss the aggressive appearing behavior and accept it,seeing it as a positive, never giving the dog the opportunity to feel safe. Safe b/c that is the crux of the situation. A dog should not feel it is in the position to protect the pack - at least not in a wrongly percieved situation. The danger is in the dog's mind - it's not real. We are in charge of our pack's safety. When a dog realizes this they calm down, they can relax on walks - no looking about like something IS going to come at them, their demeanor changes, they can ignore other dogs, eat,play,sniff,do their business,etc with other dogs near them, their response to commands is more attentive. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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DLord Holly Springs, NC
Posts:7


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| 05/17/2012 8:29 AM |
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I completely agree with you. I believe Archer came to me with fear and confidence issues. In the first weeks that I had him and we would run into any men with a deep voice he would back away and was very frantic. I emailed the breeder and asked if he had had a bad experience with a man. Her response to me was that "her ex-husband spoke loudly to Archer and let him know he was the alpha dog, although he never hurt him". Then my vet had a question on his vet records that came with him and so they called his previous vet and found out that he had had a head injury from playing too rough with another dog.
He has definitely improved in the 5 months that I've had him - he no longer fears men and the "day school" is really helping him with being around other dogs.
Do you think socializing your pup at a young age with all kinds of people and all kinds of dogs helps with their confidence/fearfulness? I did this with Zoe and she has no issues with people or other dogs.
Danielle |
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pixie bee
 MH Posts:4118


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| 05/17/2012 8:51 AM |
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I beleive in socialization. We need to remember each dog is a case by case study - no dog is perfect - no matter what anyone claims. What I do KNOW - is that this is a fixable issue.May take a few years, maybe a few weeks - but it is fixable. It's always nice to hear when owners are willing to work thru issues and keep the dog(s) For so many - dogs are disposable. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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therozypozy
 MH Posts:348


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| 05/17/2012 11:17 AM |
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I agree with pixie . . . socialization is so very important. Of course, you try to make it all postivie, but sometimes that does not happen so you just have to be on your toes. I like TexasBelle do not let other dogs unknown to me approach, as you just never know. Since I get out with my dogs to so many venues, they get lots of socialization, that I do not take the chance with dogs I do not know. So talking to a local trainer and getting him some classes which would be a more controlled environment would not doubt get you off on the right track to resolving this issue.
I will say I went through a period with my older GSP where she would act in a protective manner when there was a lone person. She never had dog issues, just people when they were by themselves at a distance. Personally I don't think she was really trying to protect me, but maybe. I think it was more fear than anything. It took sometime to fix the issue, but it was fixed. But she had to be taught to ignore that lone person out there. Obedience and focus was the key for us with some quick reactions from me when she would start to act aggressive. She is the perfect dog around people now, but there was a time when she was almost 2 that she just did not trust people if they were out by themselves, now a group of people never concerned her. Guess she thought if the person was not with its pack, something was wrong with it.
Even though my situation was not the same as yours, it can be fixed.
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Splat Illinois (Northern)
 MH Posts:2572


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| 05/17/2012 4:29 PM |
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| my dogs do pretty good in people and dog situations..... we live a very busy and crazy life style.... kids coming and going running and screaming... going all over to different places like other barns with other dogs, cats and people... we have done the dog park too... Striker every once in awhile will get his nervous/beware bark going when he sees someone usually a guy who is sort of creepy looking but one time it was an old man in a walker... I just ignore him and usually we are somewhere and I know the person so I just approach and make a greeting then Striker calms down and comes up to say hi... Blitz is usually oblivious to any people and is running around smelling and searching... |
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 http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=2553 http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=2554 |
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