lestat1978
Western PA
JH
Posts:23
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| 05/06/2012 8:06 PM |
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Ivan is very reluuctant to go through briars on a search. It's understandable, but something he'll have to deal with. I've seen harnesses online for the purpose of providing protection against thorns, barbed wire, etc. How well do they actually work? Do they get tangled up in brush? Any particular brand you'd recommend? |
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Max2
Oneonta NY
MH
Posts:1111
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| 05/07/2012 3:57 AM |
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Put a bird in there & see how they do ! |
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Chris |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4450
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| 05/07/2012 5:17 AM |
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Well, does he HAVE to go into them?
Sounds like he's an intelligent dog.
He has a nose, if there's no game in there why wouldn't he go around them?
Try Max2's advice - if it's really necessary, that is.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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lestat1978
Western PA
JH
Posts:23
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| 05/07/2012 7:23 AM |
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Sorry, I need to clarify.
Ivan is a Doberman SAR dog, so he's not going after birds, but people.
Yes, he has to go through them. Yesterday at training there was a decent, but not impassible, amount of briars with the person tucked in behind them. He did have to go through them to get to the person. |
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JMSGunner
Bucks County, PA
MH
Posts:785
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| 05/07/2012 7:59 AM |
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| Check Cabela's they have some nice "tummy savers" or gundogsupply.com |
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Jackie & Gunner
Impressive Gewehr von Catskill 4/19/2010
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4450
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| 05/07/2012 7:59 AM |
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Poor Ivan.
It's not the body I worry about when our dogs go thru them, it's the ears and eyes.
You can use vest protection for barbed wire but they don't protect their privates.
Ears bleed a lot and are difficult to stop - EMT gel helps.
I would say at this point it's not about reassuring Ivan with protection - it's about getting him more bold and driven.
I know it's scary - but a dog needs to be in a state where they forget about personal safety in order to succeed.
I can't tell you how many times I have cringed and had to look between my fingers.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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lestat1978
Western PA
JH
Posts:23
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| 05/10/2012 8:55 AM |
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Any suggestions on building drive?
Normally if a dog is hesitant to go up to someone, we get all happy and go running in with the dog like it's a party. Needless to say with thorns I'm also very carefully tip-toeing my way in as well which doesn't help get him excited.
I do know that I need to cut back on his access to toys at home. Not nearly as exciting if you get to play with them all the time. |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4450
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| 05/10/2012 9:11 AM |
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Are you familiar with Michael Ellis or Leeburg Kennels?
The only way I know of to get a dog to enter a situation that will cause pain is to have something in there the dog wants more than personal safety.
In our case it's critters.
I do not know that I could convince my dogs to go into thick briars just for the sake of going into them - we have to leave something in it for the dog.
My dogs have taken me thru horrible,nasty stuff while on blood tracks and they never blinked. Once I had tears in my eyes b/c a thorn pricked my finger - it hurt so bad and I couldn't stop the bleeding,didn't have a tissue and the deer wasn't found. We had to continue.
But, out of curiosity -
why does a dog have to go thru them? Can't the just indicate that something/someone is in there?
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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lestat1978
Western PA
JH
Posts:23
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| 05/10/2012 10:47 AM |
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To be honest I'm not sure of the answer. I just know when Ivan first started training he would get within 5 feet of the person and stop (not because of briars, but confidence issues). We all knew he had found the person, but that wasn't good enough. We had to get him to go all the way in.
I don't know if it's a certification requirement - most likely going to get him North American Police Work Dog Assoc. (NAPWDA) certified - or for legal purposes. From what I'm gathering if you end up in court any little deviation or tidbit they can use to discredit you or the dog will be brought up - regardless of whether you found the person or not. We even have to be careful what we write in our training logs.
In the beginning I didn't really question him having to go all the way up to the person, I just took it for granted that's what we needed to do. But now that the weather is nice and the briars are coming out full force, it's come up again. |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7844
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| 05/10/2012 10:56 AM |
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When my youngest shorthair was about 6 months old she and I competed in a hunt test at the Junior level. All she had to do was find and point quail. At this particular sight the quail were congregating in the tree line which was full of brambles and the wind was blowing in a direction that was hard for the young dogs to pick up scent without being in the brambles and in this particular tree line. Now I knew where the birds were because I could see them in the brambles way deep in and knowing I had a very young dog that had never experienced brambles I headed into the thick of the treeline and the brambles downwind so 1) she would follow me and 2) she would be able to pick up the scent. And follow me in she did, and had a blast with all the quail we found. Of course, I came out a bloody mess. Heck even the judges would not go into the brambles to check for points, they told me they would trust me. LOL. Now when I take Fauna out she is fearless in checking even thorny places for birds.
So, in the case of a shorthair I would put a quail or other upland bird in the brambles and help them to find it and after that you probably won't have any problems, but with a dobe you will have to find what motivates them. For most dogs though a squirrel or other critter will work pretty good. It is all about the motivation though, just a pixie said. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
   
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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kpwlee
Raleigh, NC
MH
Posts:997
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| 05/10/2012 11:34 AM |
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I am sure that you will find more applicable solutions on a dobe or SAR forum. I have one friend who is really into dobies and another who is very active in SAR. In fact one of the people in her unit works a natural eared dobe so they can excel at it. But from my understanding of SAR work you really need to build the drive for the item of your choice - in this case the hiding human. I am not sure how well you would be able to transfer the drive from a critter to the 'find'.
So I would get him some chest protection which may help with some of the briars, work on building his confidence and find an amazing reward - because the reward for doing the work is the key.
The reward for the hunting GSP is to get to the bird after it is shot, not when it points (which is their job)
For you the job is to indicate the find and then he gets the reward.
I asked the SAR friend and dobe friend for any forums that might be more useful.
I, too, have a dog that is more likely to do himself serious harm going through everything and anything than he is to protect himself. 
A couple of weeks back I had to pull his head out of briars/brambles as he was hunting rabbit. Nearly 8 hrs later he stuck his face up near mine (in a request for food) and I noticed he was chock full of thorns, pulled about 15 out of his muzzle and inside his lips |
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It's Bugsy's world...
http://dailyzoomie.blogspot.com/ |
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kpwlee
Raleigh, NC
MH
Posts:997
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| 05/10/2012 2:15 PM |
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| Friend who does SAR said to search the Yahoo groups for SAR boards there are a few although she didn't think they were great |
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It's Bugsy's world...
http://dailyzoomie.blogspot.com/ |
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kpwlee
Raleigh, NC
MH
Posts:997
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| 05/10/2012 2:33 PM |
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OK dobe person said this:
"There is the working dobermann forum, which is nice. Honestly though, they are going to tell her to wash the dog, if she's having drive issues, & find a dog better suited for SAR.
She would probably get more help contacting Tiffany from First Stryk Dobermans. They breed with SAR in mind & she may be able to help work through the issues.
She can also contact Shannon at Dobie Detective Training Academy. She does SAR as well & seems very knowledgeable."
I hope you can get some specific tips to help you and Ivan out. I think the world of people that dedicate so much time into the SAR work - very, very admirable
Good luck
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It's Bugsy's world...
http://dailyzoomie.blogspot.com/ |
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