High5Hanna
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Posts:112
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| 03/13/2012 9:01 PM |
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I have been looking at E collars and GPS tracking collars on line.
At what age can you start to use an e collar for training? I tried a wireless fence containment collar on MY neck this week end . It's not very comfortable . The thought of trying it out on MYSELF had me VERY nervous.
Hannas neck is pretty small still. I tried to search the forum on these subjects and only found one post. I may not be searching correctly .
I am working with an obedience trainer in a group . We are on week 8. I have been looking locally for Gun dog trainers and not having much luck . I have been looking at some videos posted here and picking up some tips . I'm keeping her on a 75 ft lead and trying to find our way with various commands. Shes actually responding some to Whoa . Today she stopped and sat . Doesn't always come to me far off without a correction. Its pretty exciting seeing the transformations. I think when I get impatient I want to get an e collar. And the few times I let her off lead to wander I got scared a few times because she did not show up when I called so I thought a GPS would be nice.
With my last GSP I was blissfully ingnorant and would be working for an hour or two and she would just show up . If she wasn't around when I needed to leave I'd honk my truck horn and she'd appear.
Hanna is super friendly, loves dogs and people plus shes finding Mother deer and geese and ground hogs . Each day is new for her. and I'm more worried this time around . |
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Splat
Illinois (Northern)
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Posts:3136
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| 03/14/2012 4:24 AM |
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The age is usually around a 1 yr but they have to know the commands that you are going to use the e-collar for....the check cord training is a great way to go....
I used the e-collar on my husband cuz we wanted to know how stronger it is...both of my kids have held in and have asked me to zap them...I can't remember how many settings mine has like 10 but it also has 1/2s....I keep mine set between 2-3 so I don't need it very high...I also can use just a beep sound... |
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Max2
Oneonta NY
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Posts:1111
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| 03/14/2012 4:29 AM |
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For Max I want to say around 8 months or so. E-collars are a good tool & like any tool require knowledge of how to "properly & effectively use". That being said a great tool with quick results when used properly. My first GSP I used it a couple times & found I didn't need it. So every pup is different.
Good Luck & research ! |
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TessaGA
Georgia
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Posts:2387
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| 03/14/2012 6:56 AM |
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I would not use an e-collar until they are 1 year old. I got Tessa's when she turned 1 year old and then let her wear it without me using it for 6 weeks, then I started using it, for the recall only.
I suggest to use the year prior to the e-collar to get a good foundation on the dog using traditional means (check-cord, praise, some treats - don't go overboard). Working with an obedience trainer is good, as he/she actually sees the dog, and sees YOU working the dog, and can point out what you might be doing wrong (timing, etc). I always found that very helpful. It's also helpful to have someone video-tape you while you work with your dog, then review it. I did that once and I was surprised to see some mistakes on my part that were not obvious to me at the time.
Timing is crucial when using the e-collar.
Also, NEVER use the e-collar when frustrated.
To sum up: teach the command first, use the e-collar to enforce it. To do this, you need to learn what the appropriate strength of correction is for the dog under what circumstances. Don't go over that amount out of frustration. Time the corrections well. Watch for signs of confusion from the dog. If he seems confused, he may not understand what is expected from him, and ill-timed corrections can do that.
In regards to sitting down when told to whoa - there can be several reasons for that. Some folks say that over-emphasizing "sit" during obedience training can make the dog default on it during "whoa". |
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To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 03/14/2012 7:23 AM |
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I used the e-collar on my husband cuz we wanted to know how stronger it is...both of my kids have held in and have asked me to zap them.
HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
I JUST LOVE IT!!!!!!
Your goals will determine when you begin using the ecollar.
I would not make age a determining factor.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7846
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| 03/14/2012 8:44 AM |
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| To add to what Tessa said on the sit during whoa. Sit is usually a dogs default because it is easy and usually taught to them early. When they feel pressure and are unsure of what you want they will often default to what has been successful and in this case the sit. What this behavior tells me is more training is needed so the dog knows exactly what you want him to do. I do not typically use the ecollar until the dog is at least a year old or more. It really depends on the dog. I also, like Tessa, do collar conditioning so the dog does not get collar wise. At this point in your training, I would strongly suggest you forget the ecollar and continue basic obedience training. Short sessions multiple times a day. Also, always stop on a success and do not drill your dog in an exercise. Shorthairs are smart dogs and pick up things fast and do not do well with drilling. Keep training fun, unpredictable and exciting for the dog and you will have great results. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
   
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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Rose
MH
Posts:362
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| 03/14/2012 12:19 PM |
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Shorthairs are smart dogs and pick up things fast and do not do well with drilling.
Yes, mine talks back or sighs with repeated drills.
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provotrout
JH
Posts:30
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| 03/17/2012 9:25 PM |
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If wet or juicy treats are involved Rudiger is happy to sit then lay down then stand up 50x in a row!  He also has trouble tracking tennis balls in fields though so he either doesn't care or is not so bright.
The e-collar is a godsend.. it has helped so much in the off-lead situations where he gets the best workouts but I used to get stressed b/c of losing him. Now he can get his energy out and most the time a simple command then sound will prompt recall. He's around 2, but I think e-collar training should be determined by the weight of the dog and more importantly, whether they know commands. If the dog is big enough to handle a light e-correction without pain on a known command then go for it. The degree of relativity here is large with the different correction settings and dog weights.
I try not to shock Rudi with anything I wouldn't put on my own neck.. and the higher levels effing hurt! So level 1 of 8 is "I'm serious", level 2 of 8 is "stop. now" and level 3 is nuclear mode. That stops him even though it's only enough to jolt him for a split second. E-collar settings are kind of like earth quakes, the severity goes up exponentially imo |
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mckee.lucie
Seattle, WA
MH
Posts:202
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| 03/19/2012 8:10 AM |
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| We started using an ecollar with Luna around 8 months (she's a year and half now). To both my husband and I she was a very tough puppy and could definitely handle it by then. By then she knew her commands well, and understood exactly what it was she was supposed to do. It was a took her about a week to figure out that by just wearing it she was to listen to all recalls, not just those that she felt were necessary. I don't remember the last time we actually had to use the shock on it, we pretty much just give her a reminder tone if she's hesitant and that is all she needs. We don't hunt with her, but we do a ton of hiking outdoors and spend a lot of time off leash with her. Last week I took her out on an off-leash outing, and actually forgot the remote but she wore her collar anyways and listened to recall like a champ She had no idea clearly that I the remote was at least 15 miles away back at home |
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High5Hanna
MH
Posts:112
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| 03/25/2012 10:24 AM |
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I used the e-collar on my husband cuz we wanted to know how stronger it is...both of my kids have held in and have asked me to zap them.
HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
I hope Google doesn't find this .
Thanks for all your input. I agree about teaching the comands first as best one can before using the e- collar. So depending on how fast they learn them could indicate when to start using one for when they start to disobey the commands.
Hanna is starting to disobey at times mostly by barking at me ( GRRR) She doesn't know heel yet and halt or whoa very well which is my fault.
I have been looking at videos trying to find some where the dog is not trained yet. I found a few and they use the pager first .
I'm trying to figure out which e collar to consider.
The Dogtra has the vibration, The Tri tronics has a button for vibration . The Sports Dog 1825 looks the most versitile with Beep, vibration, and the nick but it looks like you have to set which mode you want to use having only two buttons and cannot switch quickly bettween say the vibration to the nick which is what I am wanting along with a minimun of 3/4 mile.
Any recomendations on collars would be welcome .
The title was suposed to say E collars and GPS . I've been looking at GPS collars as well.
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mckee.lucie
Seattle, WA
MH
Posts:202
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| 03/25/2012 11:35 AM |
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We have a tri tronics sport basic with Luna that was recommended to us by friends whom have a vizsla. http://www.gundogsupply.com/tri-tronics-g3-sport-basic.html. Bought it on gundogsupply.com and had a great experience with them. It's pretty basic, but has a 1/2 mile range and plenty of options that appealed to us. Again though, we don't hunt with her, so I don't know if you want something with more features. It works great for us and has been reliable thus far...she wears it when we go hiking and are out in the open off-lead for recall. At this point, really by just wearing it she knows she has to listen to a recall all the time, and just the tone does it to make her realize it if we need to use it.
Good luck! There's lots out there. |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 03/25/2012 12:07 PM |
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I would get past the barking/rebellion stage before using the ecollar.
This tells me you have quite a ways to go before you have her where she needs to be.
You can use the ecollar to collar condition to HERE.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BDM78DYARc&feature=channel |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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smatulewicz
Michigan
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Posts:1193
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| 03/28/2012 6:18 PM |
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How old is Hannah? Bells hit her "puppy dumbs" at 6 months. Just starting to phase out a bit. We just had to take things back a bit and make sure we continued to be consistent. She would have days she just decided to forget she knew how to do absolutely anything at all we wanted her to do... which are usually followed by "perfect angel" days.
teaching heel is still frustrating me, but i got lazy for awhile with utilizing off leash exercise because it was so much less taxing for me and so much more fun for her. She is flawless in the house on/off lead but once we are outside the puppy dumbs kick in. I used and still do at times (but only after she refuses to calm) a head lead to help control the pulling, but only in overly stimulating environments where I wanted her to be for the socialization experience but didn't want to set her up to fail on her loose leash manners. She is getting better... so long as the beach isn't where we are heading. I just got a tiny leash that is simply a loop... just long enough for my arm to down and slightly extended. I can use this without the head lead and have much more control, and as a result she feels the tension sooner and stops pulling sooner so she is learning to walk a littler closer by (her version of heel was a shoulder length or slightly more ahead). I recommend it because it can also double as a quick check lead during training that your pup can wear around the house or out in the yard should you need to reinforce a command or get a hold of her quickly.
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High5Hanna
MH
Posts:112
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| 04/22/2012 3:48 PM |
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Hanna is over five months old and her neck size is now 12.5" has completed beginning and intermediate obedience classes. She Pulls on the lead still unless she has the gentle leader on. She has not gotten heal yet , She comes when called like the dogs who were on the video Pixie posted , But not with distractions consistently. She now jumps up on people very high. She just does not get The command “off “ consistently. She will self correct to a sit when you pull away but then jumps shortly after.
Mckee , I took your experience and ordered the same ecollar from Gundog supply which is where I first researched it. It has the pager and distance which is what I want . I should have it in a couple of days.
Hanna has been jumping out of a fenced in area at one of my clients homes for the last two weeks. They have a same age Lab puppy who plays with her for hours . They have a cat who loves to play with the lab . Hanna escalated to jumping out as soon as I would put her back. I tried placing her in her crate inside the fence for several 15 minute time outs . Unlike Helen Keller she didn’t “get the word water “ . The owners do not need to put up another fence because they said their lab would never jump the fence. Well the lab did last week by pushing the fencing down a bit and hoping over so they were both out and after the cat.. I can’t trust Hanna with the cat . I just don’t know if she would hurt him . She’s been pointing a lot especially at birds. When the cat is around the lab can be biting her ears and it doesn’t phase her while she’s in the cat zone.
The lab stays around the house and even follows me in the garden unlike Hanna who is living large.
There is a six foot board fence on one end of the area where I can watch undetected. I thought I might be able to use the collar to teach her to stay in the fenced in area. Both when I’m visible and when I’m not so visible . What I had in mind was to hide and shock her as soon as she placed her paws on the fence almost like its an electric fence.
This does not follow the main idea of associating the collar with you so it may just stay a visual till I think about it more.
Pixie thanks for the video clip . I don’t have anyone to work with me for the pulley effect. What I liked about it was that for the first time in a video someone said exactly how to use the stimulus .and showed it so it was visible. To not stop the stimulus until the dog get to your side .then turn it off , this is not a Nick. though.
The video I found for using the Vibration/ buzz first then introducing a short “ nick” was this one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBFN9E5El_g&feature=fvwrel
There is a pounce and play GSP in the back ground. 
I found her not using any verbal command interesting. I think I’ll start with this and introduce the nick when she lunges or pulls .
One dog owner I spoke with regarding showing the perimeter of their electric fence said his dog would not go near him for three weeks after being shocked and said its best to have someone else introduce it . That’s for an electric fence.
The one thing that would break my heart is if I screwed up and she would become afraid of me . Sure they will never leave your side but is this a fear response?
I ran into two owners at a lakeside dog park who had e collars on their dogs. One was a pit bull who swam non stop in the lake for an hour and guarded the shore line! The lake belonged to him! Incredible! The other was an owner of a 2 year old GSP . I spoke with them briefly . I wish I could have asked them to show me how it worked or about the timing but I didn’t want to interrupt their play time. and well the olympian was unavailable .
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Smylinacha
Connecticut
MH
Posts:1208
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| 04/22/2012 6:57 PM |
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| We also have the tritronics Gsport collar basic. Needed it for Velvet as she was wanting to kill everything that moved when we went for walks. When we got her she had scabs on her neck and I think the previous owner might have zapped her a little too much? When we put the collar on she cowared so we never "zapped" her but used the tone/vibrate button instead and she'd heal right away and continues to on walks - don't really need to use it on her anymore because she walks good now - we put it on her but never really have to press a button - just saying Heal now - she knows. Windsor - another story - and he has a lot more thicker coat than Velvet does. He is a bad puller on walks and we have to give him a little bit of correction to stop him from pulling. Other than that we don't use the e collar for anything else except for the walks. Velvet is great w/ recall but we are going to have to train Windsor better with recall. |
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High5Hanna
MH
Posts:112
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| 04/24/2012 9:50 PM |
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I got the collar today and am watching the DVD they include.
??????????????
I could use a few zoomie moments right now. .I'm finding this hilarous and I'm a bit confused. First they show how to train your dog to heel and sit befor using the collar. The dog heels and sits perfectly so why would you need to use a collar? Then they show using the collar and the dog that was doing so well begins lagging behind and it looks to me because its getting shocked.
My pet peeve ( now I know where they got that ) with the training videos I've watched is....
They show how to train a dog who already knows how to do everything perfectly and they almost always use a lab or German Shepard.
I took Hanna out today and she has regressed some in she does not sit after she comes to me and she used to do that well. .She just runs past me . So frustrating.
Pixie you said I had a long way to go befor using the collar . and to work through the rebellion barking. I agree I think I'm going to try to start over and try to use the collar with just the Buzz only with a verbal NO when she is not doing what I want and use treats and praise .when she does do what I want .
I 'm on my third type of harness and I have the gental leader as well. She doesn't pull as much with that but still insists on being in front .alittle bit .
I try everything. Puting the leash in back of me . Backing up when she pulls forward . Stopping not going any farther . She just sits ahaead of me and waits )  Then I pull her around and place her in the heel position ...... AGAIN!
praising her when ever the leash is slack which is brief.
Her jumping is getting more frequent . Shes like a ping pong ball now . But when I saw her running in the tall grass I saw her doing the deer like leaps I love so much . She's six months ahead of My Last GSP in every way. I keep forgetting the simple move of backing away when she jumps up and leaving which my trainer taught me. . I must have the Adult Dumbs.
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7846
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| 04/24/2012 10:15 PM |
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First, I would put the ecollar in the box for now and not even use it for the buzzer. This is going to sound harsh, but you have a confused puppy. She is not sure what you are asking her for heeling or even on some of the other exercises. I would go back to basic obedience. Teach sit, teach down, teach recall. All in separate pieces. Until your dog can do these basic exercises in various settings with various distractions, she is not ready for the ecollar. As for heeling, your girl has no clue where you want her. I would get rid of the harness and put her in a regular collar. If she pulls, get a pinch collar. Start with a loose leash with your girl sitting in heel position. Give the heel command and step off with confidence, and praise only when she is in the right position. If she gets out of position, change directions and when she catches up to heel position praise. The only way she will know when she is in the right spot is if you let her know it with praise. Do your heeling in a low distraction setting. You can use treats as much as you want to reinforce or lure her into the correct position. You can always fade the treats later. I suspect the pinch collar will help you a whole lot in getting her under control so you can train the heel position. Also, walk briskly. It will give her less time to sniff around and she will have to pay attention to you. If she starts pulling, change directions immediately and give the heel command. Praise when she gets into the right position. Heeling takes months and months of training to perfect. So don't get in any hurry. Same with the other exercises. Just because she does it some of the time in a non-distracting places does not mean she has got it.
Additionally, I would also work on focus with her. That is usually the area where shorthairs have a hard time. They are fine for a few moments and then their active brain wanders and bam, they are off to something else. Until you harness her focus, she is not completely there in her training.
I would recommend you continue your obedience classes too as they are good for measuring progress. However, if you are going to somewhere like PetSmart, you probably need to find somewhere else. I would look for a training center that also teaches competition obedience.
Also, remember that shorthairs are smart and do not do well with drilling. If they do something right the first time praise them and move to something else. Keep the training exciting and high energy and keep your dog guessing. This will insure they are paying attention to you. You want to become the center of their universe.
Good luck!! You guys will get there, but never get in a hurry with training. It is much better to take it slow and steady, than to have to back up and retrain. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 04/25/2012 8:54 AM |
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I could use a few zoomie moments right now. .I'm finding this hilarous and I'm a bit confused. First they show how to train your dog to heel and sit befor using the collar. The dog heels and sits perfectly so why would you need to use a collar? Then they show using the collar and the dog that was doing so well begins lagging behind and it looks to me because its getting shocked.
My pet peeve ( now I know where they got that ) with the training videos I've watched is....
They show how to train a dog who already knows how to do everything perfectly and they almost always use a lab or German Shepard.
OK - let me explain how it works,or is supposed to anyway. I feel too many people do their own thing and use the collar much less effeciently then they could.
The reason you see perfectly obedient dogs is b/c that's what a trainer is required to have before using the collar to enforce a command OR
to pressure condition a dog to a command. In other words - use the stim from the collar to cause a distraction(pressure) and have the dog perform the command,hence training the dog to an even higher level.
I'm with texas belle - put the collar away for now. you are attempting to use the collar to train an untrained dog. The collar does not train - WE TRAIN.
This will cause much confusion and actually put the two of you backwards in training.
The issues you are experiencing with heel is that you are FORCING the dog to do what you want.
TEACH the dog to do what you want. You need ACCEPTANCE from the dog.
Make training FUN, but disciplined.
Praise is good but for some dogs it becomes release to a command and an excitment promoter.
A simple,sincere pat on the shoulder and good dog will suffice.
The best way I know to have a dog who does not jump is to prevent the jump even before it become a formed thought in the dog's mind.
NOT saying this is easy or instinctual on our behalf.
It takes WORK.
BUT, in a few months, getting out of puppy stage helps a lot, you will see it has worked.
ALL dogs jump up. Period.
What I tell my kids -
THEY ARE DOGS
don't expect too much all at once
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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High5Hanna
MH
Posts:112
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| 06/11/2012 9:16 PM |
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I have taken a break from training with Hanna . I got burned out. We have just been getting used to a work schedual for now and taking her to dog parks . Shes doing very well with sleeping teathered with amenities like a small pool blanket and a bone while I work and not complaining. I catch her just watching me alot . One place I work is surrounded by fields and I have let her loose and she has come back when I called . So she has been given off leash freedom there.and runs for 4 hours straight. After work I take her to a dog park with Lake acess to play. On Memorial day she began swimming which I did not think she would do . Now she cleans up the lake of floating sticks. So her confidence is high now a good time to return to training.
I just read both your responses tonight and am in complete agreement. The collar is out of the box and charged but not used yet. My gut said I would probably do more harm than good.
Pixie thanks for the explanation for what the collar is really used for. And all the recomendations. from you both. |
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