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revlistless
Illinois
MH
Posts:284
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| 01/23/2012 8:30 PM |
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I first have to start off my saying that I do not intend this to be critical, mean spirited, or thing to that effect. I have a VERY dry sense of humor and tend of find the irony in many of the things that we do as humans and make light of it all with heavy sarcasm.
Got that out of the way....
After spending the past few years reading about the ribbons won by others dogs I have decieded to dip my toe into field trials. By shear luck I found a group that holds trials in one of my favorite state parks, and in a twist of serendipity the guy that is in charge lives just a few miles from my house. He has been breeding dogs and doing field trials since the 70's. In the brief conversation I had with him he has BLOWN wide open training oportunities I didn't know exisisted! (I'm super stoked)
So I was reading up on the rules so that I don't enbarass Adelaide our first time out and came across this...
It is strongly recommended that birds be available throughout the course.
5. -- Retrieving -- Because no birds are to be killed, and no live ammunition is used, no retrieves are required. Retrieving a dead bird on the course should carry no penalty.
Huh???? does anyone eles find this a little funny? |
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Hummingbird Hill Manor's Adelaide
Hummingbird Hill Manor's Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds
Hummingbird Hill Manor's Fritz |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 01/24/2012 5:01 AM |
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They pick on me when I say such things.
Good luck.
Field trials are there to judge dogs as upland specialists - specilaists,back in the day - were not used for retrieving - they used retrievers.
When hunting became open to the "common man" , the versatile dog was developed b/c the common man could not afford to keep more than one dog.
So,the common man needed one dog who could bird hunt,hare/rabbit hunt,duck hunt and track -and with a few other desired traits to complete the versatile dog.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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knightfarms
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
MH
Posts:87
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| 01/24/2012 5:48 AM |
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I don't know much, but the dog doesn't have to retrieve unless it's stated to be a retrieving class. Otherwise, the bird work is marked with a blank gun and we stand there like bird watchers as the quail makes its break. On to the next bird...
If the dog picks up a bird in puppy or derby, you will not be eliminated, however in gun dog stakes you will. |
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion. -Unknown |
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Splat
Illinois (Northern)
MH
Posts:3136
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| 01/24/2012 6:37 AM |
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| I see the humor first they state that no birds shall be killed and no retrieving is needed and then they say but if a dog does go get a dead bird it is ok....so which is it, LOL! |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7853
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| 01/24/2012 8:30 AM |
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I have only run one of my dogs a couple of times in FTs. I do hunt tests instead and this actually does make sense if the dog is going for his JH. There can be dead or injured birds on the course from early braces. Also, a dog can catch a bird he has pointed. So I am betting this quote is in the Puppy or Derby classes. What I suspect they mean is that birds are not shot, nor is the dog expected to retrieve, but if he picks up a dead bird or catches a bird and brings it to you he is not penalized. I am pretty sure in Puppy stakes there are not even any birds planted and you never cap your gun. All they are looking for in Puppy is how the pup works the field. Derby is more like the JH in the HT. The dog is expected to find a bird and point. I believe that a bird must be produced in 50% of the cases they point. The gun is capped, but the dog can chase and does not have to be steady.
The way it was worded in the quote was a little humorous.
BTW my boy Ringo in one of his first HTs as a puppy, did catch one of the birds he pointed and he brought it right back to me. The judge was right there watching and laughing because Ringo was obviously very proud. The judge told me that it was a very nice retrieve to hand, but that the pup wasn't expected to do that. He was joking with me because although I praised Ringo for bringing the bird, I was not very happy that he caught the bird in the first place. I have since had to correct this behavior which has not been easy. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
   
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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knightfarms
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
MH
Posts:87
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| 01/24/2012 8:41 AM |
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In the field trials in pup and derby the dogs can chase and catch without being eliminated. The difference is that in Derby they are expected to point. They don't have to hold or be steady to flush or blank fire, but it's nice if they are... Birds are not usually planted for pups but can be, and blanks aren't usually fire but can be. You have to read the premium carefully.
I also had a "fun" experience that I'm still occasionally working through where my pup had a great time chasing, catching, flushing, etc... quail at his first field trial -which we won the open and took second in the amateur stakes. And then I spent months getting him to point rather than dive bomb planted birds. He still thinks that quail are not as fun to point as pheasant or pigeons, but won't run in and eat them anymore. They can definitely pick up some bad habits in a 30 minute run that will take a long time to fix. |
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion. -Unknown |
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Legallyblonde
Otsego MI
MH
Posts:244
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| 01/25/2012 6:57 AM |
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I'd like to know how many field trial dogs are actually used for hunting and how that works if they don't retrieve? I'm not trying to stir the pot here, just genuinely curious  |
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UWPCH CA GSJCH USUVCH Boogerman Loverboy Oskar TDI CGC
SHR UWP CH Abbe Lane's Prince of Darkness TAN NA-I RBIMBS |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7853
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| 01/25/2012 7:54 AM |
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| Legally they do retrieve, just not at the Puppy or Derby level. Same with the hunt tests. They do not have to retrieve for JH. The reason is probably obvious, but you can enter a pup at 6 months and the Puppy, Derby and JH are mostly about natural ability. Similar to the first test in NAVDHA. If you read my post, I stated that the section in question is probably in the rules for Puppy Stakes. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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knightfarms
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
MH
Posts:87
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| 01/25/2012 8:14 AM |
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How what works if they don't retrieve?
In a hunt, then the hunter goes and finds their bird if they want it
And in a field trial, the dog is not placed. There are broke dog stakes (steady to wing and shot) that do not require retrieving. A dog must place in one or two retrieving stakes to earn its championship, though.
My dog hunts and is a field trialer, but just aging out of puppy. He does have a pretty solid retrieve, though. |
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion. -Unknown |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 01/25/2012 8:49 AM |
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There is a minimum requirement for retrieving.
For some the minimum is good enough.
Birds are strongly recommended - but not required
In NAVHDA there are 6 birds put out for EACH Natural Ability pup and in AKC JH the same thing - there are birds required to be placed out and to be pointed.
Which FTs do shoot birds and are these only at the ones with the retrieving stake?
The dogs that are not on a pros string probably are hunted.
I know a few.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Gunnar
MH
Posts:288
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| 01/25/2012 9:32 AM |
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Posted By pixie bee on 01/24/2012 5:01 AM
and with a few other desired traits to complete the versatile dog.
Like lay in front of the woodstove or fire place. That is true versitility!
God bless FT people but it's not for me. if you enjoy it and the dog has a good time then it's all good, but it's not my cup o tea.
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 01/25/2012 10:15 AM |
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I wish they could make coffee and have donuts ready by 5am
Now, wouldn't that be nice
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7853
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singltrak
Las Cruces, NM
MH
Posts:1149
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| 01/27/2012 12:56 PM |
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Maybe y'all need to get yourselves out to an actual trial, ride the dog wagon and watch the stakes....see the differences in Retrieving stakes and non-retrieving stakes (for broke dogs, so Open, Open Limited, All-Age and Limited All-Age). Yep, we've got coffee and pastries at 6 am (doesn't start til 7 am), lunch for all and usually a club dinner after the first day.
A broke dog (can be any age, but normally at least a year old or older) must have 4 retrieving points towards the total of 10 for a Field Championship or Amateur Field Championship. They may also have up to four juvie stakes points to carry toward that 10 points (2 in puppy, 2 in derby and they may be either open or amateur points). They must also have a major of at least 3 points (can be up to five depending on the number of dogs running in the stake and the number never changes as conformation points change from year to year) A major then, for FT dogs is at least 13 taken to the line and cast off. (Y'all still with me?)
Now, can FT dogs hunt? Do they? Well, our local resident Pro who carries normally a string of DC, FC, and AFCs also goes hunting with various dogs almost every weekend that there is not a trial....and comes home with plenty of birds as well as stories. My own DC (RIP Hero) went off hunting and was into four separate covies before he was twenty yards from the car....as well as all his huntin' buddies.
Phyllis and the Singltrak |
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Look to the Past, Breed for the Future |
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revlistless
Illinois
MH
Posts:284
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| 01/29/2012 7:46 PM |
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Posted By Splat on 01/24/2012 6:37 AM
I see the humor first they state that no birds shall be killed and no retrieving is needed and then they say but if a dog does go get a dead bird it is ok....so which is it, LOL!
 Birds shall be smote from the sky by the staunchness of point! GGRRRRR!!!!! Then and only then they can be retrieved!
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Hummingbird Hill Manor's Adelaide
Hummingbird Hill Manor's Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds
Hummingbird Hill Manor's Fritz |
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