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smatulewiczUser is Offline
Michigan
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01/15/2012 10:22 PM  

I am so glad I stumbled upon this site and wish I had weeks ago. I have so many questions that I think best to separate them. My husband and I are first time GSP owners and while any dog advice is helpful. Having some from those with the breed mean so much more!

Bella Mae is a little over 16 weeks now. She has always eaten her food SO fast, but never threw it up or seemed to have tummy issues. Just hiccups after (her breeder says the father was the same way, but eventually slowed with age). We were very fearful of food aggression so we always made her "down" and "wait" until we were done putting in bowl and placed on floor (near her kennel, but not in). She waits great. But once she gets to her food her tail is tucked and she GOES TO TOWN. She is done eating 2 cups within less than five minutes.

We also many times would put our hands near or even in her bowl briefly while she ate hoping she would realzie we did not intend to take it, and this was fine.

However, about a week ago she sprang from her "down/wait" before I gave the command so I gently took her by the collar (taking her away from the food and put her back in the spot to wait). Once she was free to go, she seemed more frantic than usual so i took it upon myself to go be by her to try and show things were fine (my mistake). I put my hand near her bowl as I have many times before...she snarled and snapped in the direction (easily could ahve made contact but did not). I removed the food. Made her wait, left for a few minutes. Returned and let her finish her meal. After she was very submissive to me for the rest of the morning.

Since the incident, at times we hand feed some of her meal, sometimes she is left to eat free, sometimes we sit near but do not interfere. Am I doing right, or am I encouraging her to be frantic when she eats. Should we feed her in her kennel with door closed so she feels more at ease that her food is hers.

Also, to slow her down a bit, I put a big teething toy in her boy that she has to work around. This has seemed to work a little. I hear more crunching of the food happening.

Any feeding advice to help soothe her at meal times (she is very happy before and after, but seems frantic during) would be so appreciated.

smatulewiczUser is Offline
Michigan
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MH
Posts:1191


01/15/2012 11:15 PM  

I should mention she has not been aggressive since, just frantic (how I describe her body language and pace at which she eats).

Also, that she eats 2x per day 2cups each of Four Health. A little more than the bag recommendation for her weight, but it is very cold her right now and I feel she needs the extra nutrients to help keep her warm.

Texas BelleUser is Offline
Austin, TX
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01/15/2012 11:41 PM  

I would get into a routine for feeding.  Make it the same procedure every day. I suspect mixing it up is making her nervous and unsure, so she gulps down her food and acts frantic.  Also, feeding in the crate may help.  I always make mine sit and wait to be released to eat.  You might also want to look into a bowl that slows her down or just take a big chain and put it in her bowl.  The other option would be to get a food puzzle toy and feed her with that. Here is a bowl:

www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm

Or the food dispensing ball:

www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm

And another food dispensing toy:

www.petco.com/product/112212/KONG-Wobbler-Food-Dispensing-Dog-Toy.aspx

As for taking the food away. I usually work with a toy and have them release it to me. You can do the same thing with a treat or bone.  This works well for teaching the drop.  I rarely take their dinner away from them, but once they allow you to take a toy or treat, removing the dinner is not usually an issue.


Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)

Yellow Rose GSPs

 photo FaunaBISJan20110001cropped_resized_zps96af44b6.jpg  photo DSC_0044_cropped_zps0a25f9ff.jpg  photo DSC_0030a_zps3c822a4a.jpg  photo DSC_0016cropped_zpsab533745.jpg

"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato
pixie beeUser is Offline

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01/16/2012 6:15 AM  

My dogs eat 2 cups in less than 2 minutes.
Maybe she is hungry? I know mine are aaaalways hungry.
Maybe split the meals into 4 times a day - 1 cup every 2-3 hours.
Some dogs eat with a lot of gusto - I wouldn't worry about it.
As I read your post the very first thing that struck me was your concern over food aggression - then I read that she snapped at you. A bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Having her wait to eat is a smart traning tool - keep it for the rest of her life.
This tactic - waiting- teaches the dog control, which hopfully will transfer to house manners and future training.
She is a pretty girl with a beautiful name.
 



"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
smatulewiczUser is Offline
Michigan
MH
MH
Posts:1191


01/16/2012 6:26 AM  

 Thank you for the feedback. She is a very good girl. I am so wanting to do right by her. Perhaps dinner time can be more typical so she doesn't wonder what is coming (will this lady sit by me. Will she feed me by hand. Will she leave me alone?)

She has no toy or treat possession, and gives them readily (we do try to practice a "trade up" method when possible. The aggression was that one day and not since...I suspect we got off to the wrong foot with her jumping gun and getting a little food before I removed her to reinforce the wait.

I do plan to get a bowl to slow her down a bit, the teething toy in the bowl in the meantime helps a bit.

Thanks again!

kpwleeUser is Offline
Raleigh, NC
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Posts:997


01/16/2012 8:33 AM  
I would definitely stop 'mixing' it up and confusing her as to whether its her time to eat. I personally think that establishing a routine is more important than messing with them as they eat.
Definitely use a treat dispensing toy or that bowl or what was suggested to me put the kibble on a cookie sheet if you want to slow her down and continue to instill a wait and release before she eats but then let her eat!
I don't think she'd have snapped if she wasn't instigated into it.
BTW she's a gorgeous girl!!

It's Bugsy's world...
http://dailyzoomie.blogspot.com/
smatulewiczUser is Offline
Michigan
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MH
Posts:1191


01/16/2012 10:45 AM  
Thanks! She is a doll, I can't take her anywhere without people telling me she is beautiful and that she has great markings.
juliejUser is Offline
Kentucky
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01/16/2012 9:23 PM  
You could also try putting some water in with her food. Not to soak it or make it soft, just right before you put it down for her. About 75% food-25% water.

Julie
Aldo von der Raucherei
smatulewiczUser is Offline
Michigan
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MH
Posts:1191


01/27/2012 8:49 AM  
Just an update with lingering concerns. I have not yet gotten a bowl designed to slow her down, but have continued putting a large heavy teething toy in she has to maneuver around and did start adding a touch of water. It has slowed her a little she even sits at times between bites. She is still done by 5 min or so

We feed her in her kennel and don't make her work for her food other than waiting until it is in her kennel and going on the "okay" command. I had taught her to carry her bowl to the kitchen which she enjoyed but she is teething terribly and it is a metal bowl and right now her mouth can't handle it.

Lingering concern...even with this routine and not switching it up she still seems very anxious and unsure. She isn't starving and has never missed a meal so I just don't understand it. Last night, I did feed her in the kitchen vs her kennel because I was working around the kitchen and I do need her learn to eat comfortably at times out of her kennel as in the summers with camping and trips this will be very normal. She was of course very unsure about this so I left her alone completely. This morning, as I walked past her kennel as she was eating she let out a little warning bark and tensed her body. I hated to confirm her fears by taking it away, but I have also read they should never "win" with this behavior... So i made my correction noise and ordered her out of her kennel (very surprised she listened and didn't panic and try to eat the rest quickly. I had her down and wait, after a minute of calmness I gave her her meal back and she finished with no issue.

I am not sure if this is just something we are going to have to come to terms with or if she will grow out of it.... But after two months of getting her meals on time with no other animal or person taking them I don't understand why she is still so anxious.
Texas BelleUser is Offline
Austin, TX
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MH
Posts:7844


01/27/2012 9:08 AM  
That sounds like pretty normal behavior for a puppy that is surprised or startled while eating. I suspect she will grow out of it once she gets through her teething and grows up a bit. I wouldn't make a big deal about it either. Let her eat in peace. She let you take the food, so she is not guarding. She may have even learned that behavior from her littermates. Also by doing what you are doing you may even be making her more anxious. You may also be inadvertently contributing to her wanting to eat fast. For some reason if she thinks the food will disappear, guess what, she will eat fast and be nervous while she eats.

As for how long it takes her to eat, 5 minutes is forever. My dogs (I have 4 shorthairs) are done much quicker than that. I also never mess with their food and let them eat in peace. The have bowls that are within a few feet of each other. Belle and Halo have one station where their bowls are side by side and Ringo and Fauna are on the opposite wall with their bowls side by side. When I release them they go right to their bowls and never mess with each other while they eat. After everyone is finished Ringo does bowl check duty and may do a bit of bowl cleaning (although I never see anything left). Fauna follows right behind her Uncle just to make sure he didn't miss any microscopic crumbs.

Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)

Yellow Rose GSPs

 photo FaunaBISJan20110001cropped_resized_zps96af44b6.jpg  photo DSC_0044_cropped_zps0a25f9ff.jpg  photo DSC_0030a_zps3c822a4a.jpg  photo DSC_0016cropped_zpsab533745.jpg

"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato
smatulewiczUser is Offline
Michigan
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Posts:1191


01/27/2012 9:28 AM  
I do understand how I probably contributed before, but since it has all been routine. We let her eat in peace. Last night was the only change up and she ate in peace. Her food has never been taken away with the exception of this morning due to the warning behavior and the previous time I posted both due to the aggression and not just for no reason. This morning I just walked by and had no intention of even connecting with her. She is happy before and do happy after so I will hope she learns with time. Breeder sai her dad show food aggression a few times but that it wasn't consistent, just his mood. She already in many ways is taking more after her dad so this could play a role too.

I will stop worrying about the speed she eats if that is normal and won't bother her belly. We never do hard running or workouts after either meal for at least a couple of hours (after breakfast, she winds down for the night after dinner)

Thanks for the feedback !
kpwleeUser is Offline
Raleigh, NC
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MH
Posts:997


01/28/2012 6:18 AM  
It really sounds to me that YOU are anxious about her eating, both speed and potential food aggression. I am 100% sure she is aware of your anxiety around her eating which is bound to create anxiety in her.
5 minutes is slow even compared to my 6 yr old who is light yrs slower than he was as a pup.
Glad you rest her after she eats, make sure she is relaxed and not exercised before too.

I am not sure why you don't want her to work for her food, it is a great thing for them, mentally and to slow them down.
Lastly I know there is so much of this idea you must be dominant over your dog but relax a bit. She's a young pup, she just wants to eat and not be messed with. I understand you wanting to feed her in her crate and also out of her crate but pick one for now and stick to it. Establish her routine and once she trusts it she'll be fine eating wherever. I am concerned that you are setting her up to be worried about eating, please relax. Let her eat, pups enjoy eating quite naturally without intervention.
I truly believe that if you stop worrying about it and relax she will too.
Enjoy her she's such a cutie

It's Bugsy's world...
http://dailyzoomie.blogspot.com/
pixie beeUser is Offline

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01/28/2012 6:55 AM  
+2 TB & kpw


"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
smatulewiczUser is Offline
Michigan
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Posts:1191


01/28/2012 7:47 AM  
We no longer make her "work" or her food besides down/wait because it was recommended to us not to. That food is a necessity and making her work for it was making her anxious if she messed up she may not get to eat.

My concern over her anxiety is simply a concern such as an owner would have over anything from health to training to whatever. I know all too much the importance of my calmness as she picks up on it. The time before and after she eats is happy and calm, she is sooo happy during both. I completely leave her alone while she eats, rarely in the same room... But do need to walk by her kennel at times.

In the meantime I will keep things routine for her until she trusts her food is hers. And I will double check my own emotional state and make sure I am not anxious during as well :)
Texas BelleUser is Offline
Austin, TX
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MH
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01/28/2012 8:37 AM  
When you do walk by her kennel be sure you are making some noise before you get to the kennel so she knows it is you approaching and you don't startle her. Maybe hum or sing something. Something that you might do naturally around the house, but no clapping or loud scary noises.

Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)

Yellow Rose GSPs

 photo FaunaBISJan20110001cropped_resized_zps96af44b6.jpg  photo DSC_0044_cropped_zps0a25f9ff.jpg  photo DSC_0030a_zps3c822a4a.jpg  photo DSC_0016cropped_zpsab533745.jpg

"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato
pixie beeUser is Offline

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01/28/2012 8:43 AM  
Food is a necessity. but only if they are going to die from lack of it.

Here's my version of having the dogs work for food -

I pick up their bowls, they know the sound and come running, they sit in front of me and as soon as they both sit I go and fill their bowls and place it in front of them,they can eat at my OK.

For your puppy you can have the food already in the bowl and as soon as she sits,and you can extend the time from 1 second to 2 minutes,if you want, as she gets more focus. Also, I do not command sit, I say nothaing at all, they realize to sit on their own and if the dog lays down,even better.


I don't think you are calm - your seemingly obessed behavior is transmitted to your dog and to us on this forum.
Your dog is trying hard to please you and has NO IDEA what you want from her.
What is "simple" to you is leaving her bewildered. She can ONLY do the wrong action b/c your expectations are unclear to her.

I don't know why eating is an obession of yours. I feed my dogs in the kitchen with whomever may be present - kids screaming,jumping,TVs loud, walking in and out - it's a mad house at times - the dogs don't care - even when Emily is practicing the clarinet - lord knows I get indigestion - oh only kidding Emily :).
She's not eating fast and she doesn't believe food will be taken away - she knows it's hers. Heck, I take food away from my dogs all the time. Sometimes we knock into the bowls while they are eating - who cares? The dogs don't.
They have trust.
Eating is not a ritual. The atmosphere does not have to be "set" before,during and after.

This is life. Why are you protecting her it?

Teach dogs to handle stress and pressure and we will have dogs who are adjusted and more balanced.





"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
smatulewiczUser is Offline
Michigan
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Posts:1191


01/28/2012 9:03 AM  
Good idea, Texas belle. Will make sure she is aware she went from being alone to having my presence. Here is our food routine (same time for breakfast and dinner): in the morning she is fed after leaving kennel and potty. No over excitement, we come in from potty, I get her bowl she follows tail wagging as she knows what is coming. Follows me back to kitchen where I snap and point to rug for her to sit and wait (which she does in her own now) after I fill the bowl (she will even leave pieces that fall alone unless I allow her to have). Once bowl is filled I walk out of the room where once I am out I give her the ok to follow (sometimes longer or shorter than others). Once in the room where is fed I snap and point to the spot I want her to wait and she goes into down and wait until I give her the ok command.

We used to do more, my husband would actually have a do a small training session in which she would get kibble as the reward treat and then her whole meal at finish.

I find myself explaining again that my worry over how fast she ate was due to my warnings from other dog owners about stomach bloat, but after research and words from others in here I realize her speed is normal. Isnt that what we do here? Feel safe to seek advice and learn from it?

My concern over her anxiety while eating, please understand I'm not a basket case at meal time or loosing sleep at night... But more seeking advice of others who may have experienced it and offer things they did to help (which some have and thank you so much) as Bella is going to be a dog that is always exposed to other people dogs and children and it will not be uncommon in the summers to have to eat which commotion all around her. I don't want her or anyone hurt. So I attempting to help her learn and trust now as best I can.
Texas BelleUser is Offline
Austin, TX
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MH
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01/28/2012 4:16 PM  
I would quit worrying about her hurting someone. She will be fine. Just find a feeding routine and stick too it and you both will be fine. I would however back off a little on all the work she has to do to eat. You can add more complexity later when she is a bit older. I would bring her in and have her sit, prepare her food, put the food down, and release her to eat. Remember at 16 weeks she is still a baby. And as pixie said feed her with whatever is normally going on around her. Turn the TV or radio on, talk on the phone, wash dishes, whatever. She will get used to noise around and not even think twice about it. She sounds like a smart girl and honestly you are doing a good job. As for bloat, there are so many theories and conflicting ideas about what causes it, and the honest truth is no one knows for sure. So relax and quit worrying about it. You are not exercising her either before or after, so you really have nothing to worry about. Would love to see some more pictures of the little stinker when you get a chance.

Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)

Yellow Rose GSPs

 photo FaunaBISJan20110001cropped_resized_zps96af44b6.jpg  photo DSC_0044_cropped_zps0a25f9ff.jpg  photo DSC_0030a_zps3c822a4a.jpg  photo DSC_0016cropped_zpsab533745.jpg

"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato
SplatUser is Offline
Illinois (Northern)
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01/29/2012 6:43 AM  
I think the forum is great for asking advise on things and you will get so many different opinions on things...which is actually great so you can choose which will work for yourself and your dog...but you also have to allow others to state their thoughts and not get upset by them...

I think Pixie bee is just trying to show you that these dogs can handle lots of crazy things...my feeding scene is much like hers...mater of fact at times friends dogs are over and eating with ours too...I do bump into the dog bowls while they are eating...my kids run up to them and grab them and say stuff like "oh mister blitzer I love you" all while the dogs eat...we have done this stuff from day 1...

I know you said you are good with the speed of her eating now....but I just want to add these dogs are speed eaters it is crazy, lol!

pixie beeUser is Offline

MH
MH
Posts:4450


01/29/2012 7:34 AM  
"oh mister blitzer I love you"


That's soooo cute.

Emily gets a bit upset when Bregon eats her food when she walks away from the laptop, she will come bursting into the room,yelling at him,grabbing him,practically jumping on him, grabs his muzzle,prys open his mouth and pulls out the food.


The point is - he does not feel threatened by her. He in no way believes she will harm him. She's the only one that he steals food,or anything, from. They have a special relationship - I think he loves her more than any of us.

My believe is that pets fit into our lives not the other way around.

I have no problem making compensations for speacial needs pets - but if they are mentally balanced - welcome to life.

I see too many people treating dogs like fragile porcelain dolls.





"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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