mckee.lucie
Seattle, WA
MH
Posts:202
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| 07/26/2011 9:19 PM |
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Hi everyone! I'm recently new on here with our GSP Luna who is now 9 1/2 months old. She's our first GSP and we couldn't be more happy and in love with this dog....but definitely could use your advice on leash training, more specifically collars out there to aid in our leash training.
Up until this point we've tried several things including the gentler leader (over the nose), easy walker harness (with front attachment), wonder walker harness (also with front attachment), and lastly a choke chain. Luna has always been a puller, and her strength has grown tremendously over the past 2 months (now at around 55 pounds) and both my husband and I are finding it difficult to enjoy our training walks with her having her pull our arm out of it's socket half the time. She gets plenty of off-leash park and play time, but during the times we're trying to do training walks daily it's a pulling struggle.
She absolutely hated the gentler leader from day one and we couldn't get her used to it. The harnesses worked OK, but even if fitted perfectly it would rub raw spots under her armpits regardless of the type of harness, and the choke chain which she doesn't respond to well and still continues to pull. So at this point we're back to just walking her on her regular collar having to give her a quick tug to get her back in line and not pulling very frequently.
I've read a few forum posts on here about the pinch collar as another good option, and would like to hear any other recommendations you may have. Both my husband and I are open to using the pinch collar, as we've found other collar aids to be very helpful in the past with her just need to find the right assistance for walking. Just FYI, we started using an e-collar about 2 months ago when she was around 7 months old for her recall when she's off-leash and it's done wonders for her recall since then.
So to sum it up, what would you go to next, a pinch collar, or something else? Would you give it more time and patience using the regular collar until around a year old? Our ultimate goal isn't necessarily expecting our dog to heal at our side the whole walk, but to at least have a nice walk with a slack 6 ft lead if possible. Any input and advice in much appreciated! |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7834
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| 07/26/2011 10:55 PM |
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| I would go to the pinch collar, but make sure you get a good one and get it fitted properly. I buy mine from J&J Dog Supply online and get the small even for my 70 lb male. I buy extra links so I can fit it properly. The pinch should fit up under the ears and be snug, but not tight. I think you will be amazed at how nicely it works and they are much safer than even a flat collar in protecting the trachea from damage due to pulling. Some people use them with the regular collar and hook them together in case the pinch comes undone. I use the quick release, but some people worry that they will come loose and the dog will get away. I have never had that issue. Good luck! |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
   
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
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| 07/27/2011 4:40 AM |
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Have you used treats?
Google Michael Ellis or Leerburg kennels.
Here ya go
http://leerburg.com/
Listen the podcasts and streamers.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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mckee.lucie
Seattle, WA
MH
Posts:202
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| 07/27/2011 7:51 AM |
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Thanks for both of your suggestions. I have looked at J and J dog supplies before and can't quite figure out the sizing that would be best for Luna. I can see they have a mini pinch which they say is intended for fine corrections on larger dogs http://www.jjdog.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=2CATMiniPinchCollars or go with their regular pinchhttp://www.jjdog.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=jj&Category_Code=2CATPinchCollarsPINC?
Is there a benefit between the regular, quick release, and swivel? I measured Luna's neck circumference just behind her ears and it's exactly 15". What would you suggest has worked best? And how many extra links would you get?
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7834
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DrWiffel
Prior Lake, MN
MH
Posts:175
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| 08/03/2011 10:49 AM |
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I haven't been on this site long, but Dexter (my 12wk old pup) has responded to treats very well. I did find a site with some good ideas on teaching the dog to heel, including using the e-collar for assistance.
http://willowcreekkennels.net/trainingvideos.html
Thanks,
Wiffel
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
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| 08/03/2011 12:02 PM |
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An ecollar may be too much pressure for a 12 week old pup. Don't know if you have been using it at this age.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7834
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| 08/03/2011 12:57 PM |
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| I would not use an ecollar on a shorthair to teach heeling. You don't need to. Shorthairs are smart and soft and you will turn a shorthair into a dead head heeler really fast if you don't keep the training short and sweet. The OP asked about a tool for keep the dog from pulling when walking and a pinch collar works wonders for that. I would not, however, make a shorthair heel for an extended period while on a walk. Heeling should be reserved for competitions, or special occasions when you need good behavior. A walk should be fun and not work. I would also not expect a dog to heel perfectly in an environment with lots of distractions until they understand where heel position is and have been properly trained. That requires allot of focus training for you dog and a pup will not be able to maintain that level of focus without some work. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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DrWiffel
Prior Lake, MN
MH
Posts:175
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| 08/03/2011 1:19 PM |
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| Oh no, I don't even have an ecollar and wasn't planning on getting until I needed one (still not sure if I will ever need one as I am still learning). It was just something I saw in the training video's at that particular kennel and they seemed to have some good ideas on learning heel (which some ideas they have might work just to keep the dog from pulling like the second video they have on teaching heel). I don’t know, I guess I’d check it out. Let me know what you think, is he going about it the wrong way? I was saying, I've had a lot of luck just using treats to get the dog to walk next to me as that's all I have for reinforcement. I'm not under the impression that the dog needs to be at my side the entire time during a walk. He's a pup and needs to explore the world. Sorry if I misunderstood what the question was. |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7834
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| 08/03/2011 2:10 PM |
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I really didn't think you were using an ecollar, and don't get me wrong, I do think there is a time and place for an ecollar in a training tool box. I have just never seen a need for one with heeling. If you are using a reward system for when your dog in in the right heeling position, that is excellent work for a 12 week old. You can extend that system to not pulling on the leash as well. A food motivated pup is very easy to train. I would recommend you keep a high value treat for training only and do not give them that treat at any other time. Also, if your pup has a special toy they love, put that aside for a reward in training too.
I took a look at the videos and those are very good training videos. Very similar to how I train heeling. I use a verbal marker instead of a clicker and I use a choke chain up high behind the ears. Essentially the same principle though. If you use this method you should be very successful. The only reason I don't use the clicker is I can respond with a verbal cue much faster than I do with the clicker. My verbal cue is "Yes." My dogs all know they get a reward for a Yes. In the second video the trainer is teaching the dog where heel position is so the dog know how to be successful and turn off the pressure that is on the ear. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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DrWiffel
Prior Lake, MN
MH
Posts:175
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| 08/03/2011 2:47 PM |
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| I never thought of using "yes" as a marker. That's a great idea! I walked in to the pet shop a few weeks ago to get a clicker, and the gal there told me not to get one because the dogs become to expect the clicker. So I was just praising and giving a treat. I like that. I think I will start using the "yes". I asked her what I should do in place, and she wasn't able to give me any good ideas... still didn't by the clicker. |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7834
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| 08/03/2011 2:56 PM |
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| I don't use the clicker because I have never mastered handling the dog, clicker, and a treat or toy. Just not that coordinated. Yes works very well. It is all in the timing. Initially you need to treat right after the marker. Later you can just use the Yes and the dog knows a treat is coming and then treat after you finish the exercise. I also use jackpots for break throughs and really good work. A jackpot is a hand full of treats like 5 or 6 at once, but I hand them out one at a time so the dog knows they are getting more than one treat. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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mckee.lucie
Seattle, WA
MH
Posts:202
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| 08/03/2011 10:15 PM |
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Just caught up on all the recent comments  We ordered luna the pinch collar and are waiting for it to get here. Thank you everyone for the suggestions and comments you left. As for the 12 week old pup, I would probably just continue using treats and lots of positive reinforcement. Luna did great with this as a younger puppy, but has just gotten too strong and pulls way to hard to have it be effective alone anymore. From what I saw other people say, we too use the "yes" as a marker command which was suggested by our dog trainer instead of the clicker and it's worked great for her.
As for the e-collar, I think it's a great aid for for recall training and when she's off leash and tempted to jump on people with excitement but I don't see it used much for heel. We started using the e-collar with her around 7 months old and it only took about 2-3 weeks of using it in big fields where she could run off-leash to have her recall close to perfect. We rarely ever have to use anything but the tone option at this point. Best of luck with the 12 week old pup, they do grow up way too fast! |
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Splat
Illinois (Northern)
MH
Posts:3130
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| 08/04/2011 5:50 AM |
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| I used the ecollar once with Blitz for heel....however what we did was because Blitz will walk on the leash and heel when I am walking him after I give a couple reminders (quick tugs on the leash), but won't for my 11 year old son....so the day before his 4-H class my son walked him and instead of him giving the tug corrections I turned the ecollar down from where we have it set for recall and I gave him a couple corrections from my distant hiding place...it worked well....Blitz was amazed at my son's sudden strength and walked nicely the rest of the time... |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
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| 08/04/2011 7:11 AM |
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| Yep, once a dog is 'convinced' that we can actually make them do it, they have a change of mind. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Splat
Illinois (Northern)
MH
Posts:3130
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| 08/05/2011 5:37 AM |
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| yeah my sons coordination with the correction just wasn't good....he is so uncoordinated...it is very funny watching him juggle the treats and leash at the same time....so me being able to "hide" (Blitz knew I was there but I always am he and he always give Quenten a hard time) and get the correction at the proper time just helped make Blitz respect Quenten a bit... |
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mckee.lucie
Seattle, WA
MH
Posts:202
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| 08/14/2011 2:52 PM |
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| Just wanted to pass on good news that the pinch collar seems to be working wonders for Luna and we can all finally walk without looking like we're dragged down the street. Thank you for the tips and advice! |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7834
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| 08/14/2011 7:21 PM |
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| Glad it worked for you. I think you will find too that she will catch on and you won't have to use the pinch forever. How about some new pictures of Luna? She looks like a lovely girl and we always love pictures. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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