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Gspdoo
MH
Posts:326
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| 05/25/2011 1:18 PM |
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I read with interest the links on the subject of dilute brown that Diane
attached to her original post. One of particular interest is:
According to this author, the mutations of brown have been found in hunting
dogs (apparently selected for the brown camouflage quality) more than in other
types of breeds. It has been found in shorthaired, wirehaired and longhaired gun
dogs. The coat differentiation in gun dogs is placed in time at about the
year 1100 so that it is likely that this mutation, seen
across all coat types, occurred before then.
Sooooooooo, while the dd mutation showed up in Diane's litter, it is
possible that many, many Shorthairs carry a Dd at this locus, with the parent
exhibiting normal (desired by breeders) coat color, but able to pass on the gray
as a dd, one from each both parent, when the "little d's" get
together.
So all of us have an interest in having our dogs tested, not just those
with lines similar to Diane.
One more reason to embrace all the information available to us as
breeders -- and never to feel smug when a genetic issue crops up with
someone else. I will be happy to have my dogs tested.
Sandra Kretz
MARIAH
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berihill
MH
Posts:271
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| 05/25/2011 1:30 PM |
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Thank You Sandy...somehow I missed seeing those links! Please disregard my last question.
From: "Gspdoo@aol.com"
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Cc: Mariahgsps@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 2:14 PM
Subject: [gsp-l] The Dilute Gene for Brown Goes Waaaaaaaay Back.
I read with interest the links on the subject of dilute brown that Diane attached to her original post. One of particular interest is:
http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dogbrown.html
According to this author, the mutations of brown have been found in hunting dogs (apparently selected for the brown camouflage quality) more than in other types of breeds. It has been found in shorthaired, wirehaired and longhaired gun dogs. The coat differentiation in gun dogs is placed in time at about the year 1100 so that it is likely that this mutation, seen across all coat types, occurred before then.
Sooooooooo, while the dd mutation showed up in Diane's litter, it is possible that many, many Shorthairs carry a Dd at this locus, with the parent exhibiting normal (desired by breeders) coat color, but able to pass on the gray as a dd, one from each both parent, when the "little d's" get together.
So all of us have an interest in having our dogs tested, not just those with lines similar to Diane.
One more reason to embrace all the information available to us as breeders -- and never to feel smug when a genetic issue crops up with someone else. I will be happy to have my dogs tested.
Sandra Kretz
MARIAH |
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Gspdoo
MH
Posts:326
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| 05/25/2011 2:26 PM |
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This does not mean that the mutation could not happen again to particular
dogs we breed in modern times. Mutations of some sort occur constantly, every
time an egg and sperm get together. I used to do research in hemophilia, and
about 1/3 of families with a child with hemophilia have no family history of the
disease. Although it is a rare disease, this is a mutation that
is known to occur again and again, all around the world, in every
generation.
All I'm saying is that the "little d" for dilute brown that produces gray,
was apparently part of the genetic material that was there even before GSPs were
developed as a breed. How many times it has happened since then, we don't
know.
Until we can get enough people to test and collect the information, we will
not know how prevalent it is in our breed.
Sandra
In a message dated 5/25/2011 3:26:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
Gspdoo@aol.com writes:
I read with interest the links on the subject of dilute brown that Diane
attached to her original post. One of particular interest is:
According to this author, the mutations of brown have been found in
hunting dogs (apparently selected for the brown camouflage quality) more than
in other types of breeds. It has been found in shorthaired, wirehaired and
longhaired gun dogs. The coat differentiation in gun dogs is placed in time at
about the year 1100 so that it is likely that this
mutation, seen across all coat types, occurred before then.
Sooooooooo, while the dd mutation showed up in Diane's litter, it is
possible that many, many Shorthairs carry a Dd at this locus, with the parent
exhibiting normal (desired by breeders) coat color, but able to pass on the
gray as a dd, one from each both parent, when the "little d's" get
together.
So all of us have an interest in having our dogs tested, not just those
with lines similar to Diane.
One more reason to embrace all the information available to us as
breeders -- and never to feel smug when a genetic issue crops up with
someone else. I will be happy to have my dogs tested.
Sandra Kretz
MARIAH
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bajnok
MH
Posts:67
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| 05/26/2011 4:24 AM |
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Sandra,
Given the relative rarity of this occurrence, I would doubt “many, many
Shorthairs'’ carry d. I think most authors and geneticists have assumed
that this breed is homozygous DD. I think this is correct. Whether as a result
of a mutation or, as is far more likely, its introduction through
cross-breeding, I doubt the d recessive could be present in that many GSPs or
there should have been more widespread appearance of these dilutes.
Francois
François
Bernier
Bajnok GSPs
www.bajnok.net
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 3:14 PM
Subject: [gsp-l] The Dilute Gene for Brown Goes Waaaaaaaay
Back.
Sooooooooo, while the dd mutation showed up in Diane's litter, it is
possible that many, many Shorthairs carry a Dd at this locus, with the parent
exhibiting normal (desired by breeders) coat color, but able to pass on the gray
as a dd, one from each both parent, when the "little d's" get together.
Sandra Kretz
MARIAH
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CathyYak
MH
Posts:963
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| 05/26/2011 5:20 AM |
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Francois,
Do you think that it is likely this color was introduced through
crossbreeding to a weim? Maybe this could be an argument for us to use
against "Q" numbers in our breed for AKC. Now we have undesirable colors,
both gray (silver) and yellow. I wonder what color eyes these gray GSPs
have. Do we also get silver eyes? Just curious. I have not
seen one personally.
Cathy Iacopelli
Claddagh
Kennels
German Shorthaired Pointers
CladdaghKennels.com
In a message dated 5/26/2011 6:34:21 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
bajnok@videotron.ca writes:
Sandra,
Given the relative rarity of this occurrence, I would doubt “many, many
Shorthairs'’ carry d. I think most authors and geneticists have assumed
that this breed is homozygous DD. I think this is correct. Whether as a result
of a mutation or, as is far more likely, its introduction through
cross-breeding, I doubt the d recessive could be present in that many GSPs or
there should have been more widespread appearance of these dilutes.
Francois
François
Bernier
Bajnok GSPs
www.bajnok.net
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 3:14 PM
Subject: [gsp-l] The Dilute Gene for Brown Goes Waaaaaaaay
Back.
Sooooooooo, while the dd mutation showed up in Diane's litter, it is
possible that many, many Shorthairs carry a Dd at this locus, with the parent
exhibiting normal (desired by breeders) coat color, but able to pass on the
gray as a dd, one from each both parent, when the "little d's" get
together.
Sandra Kretz
MARIAH
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Cathy Iacopelli
Claddagh Kennels
Long Island, New York |
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bajnok
MH
Posts:67
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| 05/26/2011 5:57 AM |
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On pedigree research: the easy one would be if one found a solid liver
registered as the offspring of two ticked GSPs, you would have found the likely
source of the little interloper d gene
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 7:47 AM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] The Dilute Gene for Brown Goes Waaaaaaaay
Back.
Of course this is entirely speculative but that seems a reasonable
possibility. In Sporting dogs, the Weimie is the only breed that is homozygous
dd. Cocker Spaniels carry d but it seems unlikely that the offspring of a GSP
and dilute Cocker could have passed as a GSP  A Weimie/GSP cross
on the other hand could produce a reasonable facsimile of a GSP or at least
enough of one to go undetected. The only thing that is certain is that this dog
would have been solid liver out of either a ticked or solid liver dam. One can
easily envisage a Weimie accidentally getting to a bitch that has also been
mated to a GSP... owner may or may not be aware... but when the litter is
whelped, there is one or 2 in the litter that call the Weimie daddy... Again,
purely speculative but pedigree research could perhaps pinpoint an answer...
Fr
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bajnok
MH
Posts:67
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| 05/26/2011 5:57 AM |
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Of course this is entirely speculative but that seems a reasonable
possibility. In Sporting dogs, the Weimie is the only breed that is homozygous
dd. Cocker Spaniels carry d but it seems unlikely that the offspring of a GSP
and dilute Cocker could have passed as a GSP  A Weimie/GSP cross
on the other hand could produce a reasonable facsimile of a GSP or at least
enough of one to go undetected. The only thing that is certain is that this dog
would have been solid liver out of either a ticked or solid liver dam. One can
easily envisage a Weimie accidentally getting to a bitch that has also been
mated to a GSP... owner may or may not be aware... but when the litter is
whelped, there is one or 2 in the litter that call the Weimie daddy... Again,
purely speculative but pedigree research could perhaps pinpoint an answer...
Fr
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 7:18 AM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] The Dilute Gene for Brown Goes Waaaaaaaay
Back.
Francois,
Do you think that it is likely this color was introduced through
crossbreeding to a weim? Maybe this could be an argument for us to use
against "Q" numbers in our breed for AKC. Now we have undesirable colors,
both gray (silver) and yellow. I wonder what color eyes these gray GSPs
have. Do we also get silver eyes? Just curious. I have not
seen one personally.
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CathyYak
MH
Posts:963
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| 05/26/2011 6:03 AM |
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So it could have been one pup in a litter of purebred if the bitch "stepped
out" with a weim and was also bred to a GSP on the same heat, correct?
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Cathy Iacopelli
Claddagh Kennels
Long Island, New York |
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legacykennels1
MH
Posts:226
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| 05/26/2011 6:13 AM |
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since i have been around a long time lol.i can tell stories about waaay back when...lol...so here goes. many many years ago i sold a puppy to a guy in Pittsburgh. cant remember his name. She was ticked. he bred her to a half brother I think it was. That dog was ticked. he got solid liver in the litter. I know I know..cant happen right?..anyway i dont remember if she was the only liver, or if there were more as i never saw the litter. Thing is he was a newbie. so was I. he proudly told everyone what happened. Everyone jumped on him as he also owned a red male doberman. The bitch was admittly snipey headed so...voila..she was a dobe cross. he was devastated. She also had ticking on her chest and feet by the way. He swore there was not a mis mating. This was a close breeding with solid liver behind them. I spoke to a genetic expert at Penn. He said that the only
thing in breeding is to expect the unexpected. She was placed in a pet home. I dont think the dobe was the daddy as they dont carry for ticking i believe...so...here is another one for the books. We didnt have DNA back then, so there was no way to research things. Sharon D. you saw her..remember? I think you brought her back from Pitts burg for me if i remember ??? So...i think the silver has been around..but those pups were either euth. or placed quietly in a pet home. No one would believe it wasnt a weim ooops. Hell i didnt either the first time someone told me about the litter I heard about. Then when it happened again and I know there was not a weim in the woodpile, i believe there is some type of dilute color gene somewhere. thats all for now folks. have a great morning. Donna
--- On Thu, 5/26/11, Francois Bernier wrote:
From: Francois Bernier
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] The Dilute Gene for Brown Goes Waaaaaaaay Back.
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Date: Thursday, May 26, 2011, 7:51 AM
On pedigree research: the easy one would be if one found a solid liver registered as the offspring of two ticked GSPs, you would have found the likely source of the little interloper d gene
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 7:47 AM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] The Dilute Gene for Brown Goes Waaaaaaaay Back.
Of course this is entirely speculative but that seems a reasonable possibility. In Sporting dogs, the Weimie is the only breed that is homozygous dd. Cocker Spaniels carry d but it seems unlikely that the offspring of a GSP and dilute Cocker could have passed as a GSP  A Weimie/GSP cross on the other hand could produce a reasonable facsimile of a GSP or at least enough of one to go undetected. The only thing that is certain is that this dog would have been solid liver out of either a ticked or solid liver dam. One can easily envisage a Weimie accidentally getting to a bitch that has also been mated to a GSP... owner may or may not be aware... but when the litter is whelped, there is one or 2 in the litter that
call the Weimie daddy... Again, purely speculative but pedigree research could perhaps pinpoint an answer...
Fr
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bajnok
MH
Posts:67
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| 05/26/2011 6:38 AM |
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Yes
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 8:00 AM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] The Dilute Gene for Brown Goes Waaaaaaaay
Back.
So it could have been one pup in a litter of purebred if the bitch "stepped
out" with a weim and was also bred to a GSP on the same heat, correct?
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CathyYak
MH
Posts:963
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| 05/26/2011 6:57 AM |
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Ok thanks, I am receiving the list emails out of order, so I didn't see your explanation before I asked the question  .
Cathy
-----Original Message-----
From: Francois Bernier
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Thu, May 26, 2011 8:31 am
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] The Dilute Gene for Brown Goes Waaaaaaaay Back.
Yes
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 8:00 AM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] The Dilute Gene for Brown Goes Waaaaaaaay Back.
So it could have been one pup in a litter of purebred if the bitch "stepped out" with a weim and was also bred to a GSP on the same heat, correct?
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Cathy Iacopelli
Claddagh Kennels
Long Island, New York |
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DJSLand
JH
Posts:24
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| 05/26/2011 6:59 AM |
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Now you guys have me totally confused with the Emails going in
circles. I dont think I like what you might be implying . . . . . do you
honestly think that Liza had an "opps" breeding as well as being bred to my dog
Polo ??? Do you honestly think that the 4 gray and white, patched
and ticked puppies I have are sired by some mystrey dog and the 3 liver and
white, patched and ticked puppies are sired by Polo ??? Are you suggesting
that I DNA every puppy as well as the MLPH coat color gene test ??? Both
Polo and Liza are already DNA tested and on record so there is no falsifying
those records.
Please clarify, thank you - Diane / Panamint
GSPs
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berihill
MH
Posts:271
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| 05/26/2011 7:07 AM |
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| Certainly NOT me implying that Diane. I know you would NEVER let that come close to happening with your beloved Liza. I think the gene is in the breed from somewhere much further back than the current generation and so we all need to test breeding stock. Like CD it could surface anywhere. Jennifer Mills ~ Berihill GSPs & BCs
www.berihill.com
From: "DJSLand@aol.com"
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 7:47 AM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] The Dilute Gene for Brown Goes Waaaaaaaay Back.
Now you guys have me totally confused with the Emails going in
circles. I dont think I like what you might be implying . . . . . do you
honestly think that Liza had an "opps" breeding as well as being bred to my dog
Polo ??? Do you honestly think that the 4 gray and white, patched
and ticked puppies I have are sired by some mystrey dog and the 3 liver and
white, patched and ticked puppies are sired by Polo ??? Are you suggesting
that I DNA every puppy as well as the MLPH coat color gene test ??? Both
Polo and Liza are already DNA tested and on record so there is no falsifying
those records.
Please clarify, thank you - Diane / Panamint
GSPs
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berihill
MH
Posts:271
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| 05/26/2011 7:34 AM |
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I Did read the info on the link to David Quindt provided. If the info is correct, Weims and GSPs were in the same stud book many years ago and then the Weims split off and started a separate stud book. hmm.
From: Berihill
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 8:05 AM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] The Dilute Gene for Brown Goes Waaaaaaaay Back.
Certainly NOT me implying that Diane. I know you would NEVER let that come close to happening with your beloved Liza. I think the gene is in the breed from somewhere much further back than the current generation and so we all need to test breeding stock. Like CD it could surface anywhere.
From: "DJSLand@aol.com"
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 7:47 AM
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] The Dilute Gene for Brown Goes Waaaaaaaay Back.
Now you guys have me totally confused with the Emails going in circles. I dont think I like what you might be implying . . . . . do you honestly think that Liza had an "opps" breeding as well as being bred to my dog Polo ??? Do you honestly think that the 4 gray and white, patched and ticked puppies I have are sired by some mystrey dog and the 3 liver and white, patched and ticked puppies are sired by Polo ??? Are you suggesting that I DNA every puppy as well as the MLPH coat color gene test ??? Both Polo and Liza are already DNA tested and on record so there is no falsifying those records.
Please clarify, thank you - Diane / Panamint GSPs |
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Gspdoo
MH
Posts:326
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| 05/26/2011 8:31 AM |
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Diane -- I had the same reaction when I got online this morning -- I don't
like the direction this discussion is heading. With all due respect to
Francois' knowledge and expertise in genetics, I don't know why it is more
likely that a Weim got over the fence than it is that a mutation which published
experts believe was documented a thousand years ago, could have happened
again 500, 100 or 50 years ago? Or could be carried forward in multiple
breeding programs, never emerging until someone line bred a litter with "little
d's" and was courageous enough to step forward and talk about it. (This is like
CD deja vu all over again).
Leita Estes has asked all members of the Health and Welfare Committee to
test some of their own dogs for MHLP -- I have offered 3 of mine, and others
have also come forward. We know you and hopefully some others with related
dogs will test also. I would invite all of those who have opined on the
List to also offer their dogs to be tested so we can see the
prevalence of "d" in our breed. Only then will we begin to know
what we have on this subject.
No one knows how often this happened in the past -- or other countries
where litters are customarily culled for unwanted puppies. I thought Jan
McManigal's post about her conversation years ago with Mildred Revell
(Weidenbach) was one of the most helpful posts. She was a respected breeder long
before my time -- this is not a new phenomenon.
And yes, sadly I would urge you to AKC DNA test all of your puppies, just
for your own protection when wagging tongues wag.
I would again urge people on the List to read Schmutz's article -- if you
don't want to read it, at least look at the extensive list of breeds (Field
Spaniels? Poodles? Wirehaired Pointing Griffon's?) that carry the b/d mutation.
We will never truly know, but the prevalence of this across multiple breeds
suggests that this is more than a Weim getting over the back fence.
Sandra Kretz
MARIAH
In a message dated 5/26/2011 8:59:47 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
DJSLand@aol.com writes:
Now you guys have me totally confused with the Emails going in
circles. I dont think I like what you might be implying . . . . . do you
honestly think that Liza had an "opps" breeding as well as being bred to my
dog Polo ??? Do you honestly think that the 4 gray and
white, patched and ticked puppies I have are sired by some mystrey
dog and the 3 liver and white, patched and ticked puppies are sired by Polo
??? Are you suggesting that I DNA every puppy as well as the MLPH coat
color gene test ??? Both Polo and Liza are already DNA tested and on
record so there is no falsifying those records.
Please clarify, thank you - Diane / Panamint
GSPs
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dise454
MH
Posts:144
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| 05/26/2011 9:06 AM |
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Diane, You did a great thing coming forward and I respect and applaud you for it. People who throw false accusations aren't worthy of your time or a second thought. I for one don't think you had an oops breeding, but honestly if someone did it would be ok, things happen and people shouldn't be stoned for it, they just need to deal with it in a respectful manner. It is how someone handles a situation that builds their character, not by their mistakes (or by some genetic issue that is beyond our control) . You've handled this very well and there are a lot of people supporting you.
-----Original Message-----
Now you guys have me totally confused with the Emails going in circles. I dont think I like what you might be implying . . . . . do you honestly think that Liza had an "opps" breeding as well as being bred to my dog Polo ??? Do you honestly think that the 4 gray and white, patched and ticked puppies I have are sired by some mystrey dog and the 3 liver and white, patched and ticked puppies are sired by Polo ??? Are you suggesting that I DNA every puppy as well as the MLPH coat color gene test ??? Both Polo and Liza are already DNA tested and on record so there is no falsifying those records.
Please clarify, thank you - Diane / Panamint GSPs
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tbrumbaugh
MH
Posts:72
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| 05/26/2011 9:13 AM |
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I hope Francois will respond. I took the explanation to mean that it COULD have happened, and probably had been many generations back in the lines. If it could have happened and the people involved did not know why and never said a word. I don't think his explanation implied it did happen this particular occasion Diane. Francois... Please follow up.
Terry
Elegant GSP
Elegantgsp.comSent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
From: Gspdoo@aol.com
Sender: gsp-l-request@shorthairs.net Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 10:28:39 EDT To: ReplyTo: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Cc: Subject: Re: [gsp-l] The Dilute Gene for Brown Goes Waaaaaaaay Back.
Diane -- I had the same reaction when I got online this morning -- I don't
like the direction this discussion is heading. With all due respect to
Francois' knowledge and expertise in genetics, I don't know why it is more
likely that a Weim got over the fence than it is that a mutation which published
experts believe was documented a thousand years ago, could have happened
again 500, 100 or 50 years ago? Or could be carried forward in multiple
breeding programs, never emerging until someone line bred a litter with "little
d's" and was courageous enough to step forward and talk about it. (This is like
CD deja vu all over again).
Leita Estes has asked all members of the Health and Welfare Committee to
test some of their own dogs for MHLP -- I have offered 3 of mine, and others
have also come forward. We know you and hopefully some others with related
dogs will test also. I would invite all of those who have opined on the
List to also offer their dogs to be tested so we can see the
prevalence of "d" in our breed. Only then will we begin to know
what we have on this subject.
No one knows how often this happened in the past -- or other countries
where litters are customarily culled for unwanted puppies. I thought Jan
McManigal's post about her conversation years ago with Mildred Revell
(Weidenbach) was one of the most helpful posts. She was a respected breeder long
before my time -- this is not a new phenomenon.
And yes, sadly I would urge you to AKC DNA test all of your puppies, just
for your own protection when wagging tongues wag.
I would again urge people on the List to read Schmutz's article -- if you
don't want to read it, at least look at the extensive list of breeds (Field
Spaniels? Poodles? Wirehaired Pointing Griffon's?) that carry the b/d mutation.
We will never truly know, but the prevalence of this across multiple breeds
suggests that this is more than a Weim getting over the back fence.
Sandra Kretz
MARIAH
In a message dated 5/26/2011 8:59:47 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
DJSLand@aol.com writes:
Now you guys have me totally confused with the Emails going in
circles. I dont think I like what you might be implying . . . . . do you
honestly think that Liza had an "opps" breeding as well as being bred to my
dog Polo ??? Do you honestly think that the 4 gray and
white, patched and ticked puppies I have are sired by some mystrey
dog and the 3 liver and white, patched and ticked puppies are sired by Polo
??? Are you suggesting that I DNA every puppy as well as the MLPH coat
color gene test ??? Both Polo and Liza are already DNA tested and on
record so there is no falsifying those records.
Please clarify, thank you - Diane / Panamint
GSPs
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WYNDAM1
SH
Posts:49
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| 05/26/2011 9:52 AM |
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Hello to all,
Yes, this topic has taken a bit of a turn.
Sandra, I think you are very right in that this gene has been with us for
many moons.
Regardless how it got there it is there and thanfully we have technology
today that allows us
to test for it and therefore eliminate from any future breedings if this
tool is used properly.
Besides the Weim theory another possibility would be the inclusion of
Hounds in our ancestry.
Many Hound breeds have and allow Blues/Dilutes, so I think very possible
this diluting gene has been
present like I said for many many moons.
I do think that there have been many through the years, I just think that
those were either kept quiet or culled
as they were thought to be undesirable and probably for fear of being
accused of a mis-mating or a witch hunt. I find it interesting that now that it
has been brought out into the open, many are stepping forward and commenting on
the fact that they have either had one, seen one or heard of one.
I had one, almost 10 years ago (and not another one since), shocked the you
know what out of me. When it happened I immediately put it out there and asked
many many long time breeders, NO ONE had EVER heard of such a thing or so
they said? She is quite beautiful, Silver head with a blaze and
Silver and white ticked, ALL GSP. I can post pics I have her both as a baby and
adult. I placed her with my Assistants brother so that I could keep an
eye on her as she matured. At the time to the best of my knowledge the
color test was not available.
And so, we move forward with our breed always learning. I encourage those
to test there dogs even if they haven't ever produced one, as it is the database
that could prove important for further research.
I don't have the pics available on this computer but will try to get to it
asap, leaving for a long weekend in about an hour.
Valerie Nunes-Atkinson
VJK-MYST GSP's
In a message dated 5/26/2011 7:31:46 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
Gspdoo@aol.com writes:
Diane -- I had the same reaction when I got online this morning -- I
don't like the direction this discussion is heading. With all due
respect to Francois' knowledge and expertise in genetics, I don't know
why it is more likely that a Weim got over the fence than it is that a
mutation which published experts believe was documented a thousand years
ago, could have happened again 500, 100 or 50 years ago? Or could be
carried forward in multiple breeding programs, never emerging until someone
line bred a litter with "little d's" and was courageous enough to step forward
and talk about it. (This is like CD deja vu all over again).
Leita Estes has asked all members of the Health and Welfare Committee to
test some of their own dogs for MHLP -- I have offered 3 of mine, and others
have also come forward. We know you and hopefully some others with
related dogs will test also. I would invite all of those who have
opined on the List to also offer their dogs to be tested so
we can see the prevalence of "d" in our breed. Only then will we
begin to know what we have on this subject.
No one knows how often this happened in the past -- or other countries
where litters are customarily culled for unwanted puppies. I thought Jan
McManigal's post about her conversation years ago with Mildred Revell
(Weidenbach) was one of the most helpful posts. She was a respected breeder
long before my time -- this is not a new phenomenon.
And yes, sadly I would urge you to AKC DNA test all of your puppies, just
for your own protection when wagging tongues wag.
I would again urge people on the List to read Schmutz's article -- if you
don't want to read it, at least look at the extensive list of breeds (Field
Spaniels? Poodles? Wirehaired Pointing Griffon's?) that carry the b/d
mutation. We will never truly know, but the prevalence of this across multiple
breeds suggests that this is more than a Weim getting over the back
fence.
Sandra Kretz
MARIAH
In a message dated 5/26/2011 8:59:47 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
DJSLand@aol.com writes:
Now you guys have me totally confused with the Emails going in
circles. I dont think I like what you might be implying . . . . . do
you honestly think that Liza had an "opps" breeding as well as being bred to
my dog Polo ??? Do you honestly think that the 4 gray and
white, patched and ticked puppies I have are sired by some mystrey
dog and the 3 liver and white, patched and ticked puppies are sired by Polo
??? Are you suggesting that I DNA every puppy as well as the MLPH coat
color gene test ??? Both Polo and Liza are already DNA tested and on
record so there is no falsifying those records.
Please clarify, thank you - Diane / Panamint
GSPs
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Gspdoo
MH
Posts:326
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| 05/26/2011 10:23 AM |
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Diane -- I just wanted to clarify that I believe no
one is suggesting a Weim got over your fence, but
rather that an alternative explanation to the appearance of the gray is that a
Weim (which are all dd) bred a Shorthair in some time past, resulting
in a solid liver registered as a GSP that carried a "little d", and
that these little d's were passed along until they met each other in your
litter. That is, of course, a possibility. But I think it is unfortunate that it
is easy to seize upon the mixed breed litter theory as a
preferable explanation when we know that this
same dilute gene exists in other breeds where there is little possibility of a
Weim cross, and that this little d has existed in gun dogs even before
GSPs and Weims were created as breeds.
Since Weims and GSPs were being developed in Germany at the same time --
who knows?
Again, I would suggest that if people want to be helpful in shedding more
light on this riddle, they can have a dog or two of theirs tested and
participate in the database Leita is developing.
Sandra
In a message dated 5/26/2011 10:31:24 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
Gspdoo@aol.com writes:
Diane -- I had the same reaction when I got online this morning -- I
don't like the direction this discussion is heading. With all due
respect to Francois' knowledge and expertise in genetics, I don't know
why it is more likely that a Weim got over the fence than it is that a
mutation which published experts believe was documented a thousand years
ago, could have happened again 500, 100 or 50 years ago? Or could be
carried forward in multiple breeding programs, never emerging until someone
line bred a litter with "little d's" and was courageous enough to step forward
and talk about it. (This is like CD deja vu all over again).
Leita Estes has asked all members of the Health and Welfare Committee to
test some of their own dogs for MHLP -- I have offered 3 of mine, and others
have also come forward. We know you and hopefully some others with
related dogs will test also. I would invite all of those who have
opined on the List to also offer their dogs to be tested so
we can see the prevalence of "d" in our breed. Only then will we
begin to know what we have on this subject.
No one knows how often this happened in the past -- or other countries
where litters are customarily culled for unwanted puppies. I thought Jan
McManigal's post about her conversation years ago with Mildred Revell
(Weidenbach) was one of the most helpful posts. She was a respected breeder
long before my time -- this is not a new phenomenon.
And yes, sadly I would urge you to AKC DNA test all of your puppies, just
for your own protection when wagging tongues wag.
I would again urge people on the List to read Schmutz's article -- if you
don't want to read it, at least look at the extensive list of breeds (Field
Spaniels? Poodles? Wirehaired Pointing Griffon's?) that carry the b/d
mutation. We will never truly know, but the prevalence of this across multiple
breeds suggests that this is more than a Weim getting over the back
fence.
Sandra Kretz
MARIAH
In a message dated 5/26/2011 8:59:47 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
DJSLand@aol.com writes:
Now you guys have me totally confused with the Emails going in
circles. I dont think I like what you might be implying . . . . . do
you honestly think that Liza had an "opps" breeding as well as being bred to
my dog Polo ??? Do you honestly think that the 4 gray and
white, patched and ticked puppies I have are sired by some mystrey
dog and the 3 liver and white, patched and ticked puppies are sired by Polo
??? Are you suggesting that I DNA every puppy as well as the MLPH coat
color gene test ??? Both Polo and Liza are already DNA tested and on
record so there is no falsifying those records.
Please clarify, thank you - Diane / Panamint
GSPs
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wyndbournegsp
MH
Posts:215
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| 05/26/2011 11:47 AM |
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Daine and everyone else
As Francois has already stated, A weim crossed with a GSP equals solid liver. I have seen two such litters. The silver goes much further back than one generation. like other problems that we have had not only in GSP's but other breeds as well, there must be a ghost that reared it's ugly head, and I agree, it takes two to tango so I would assume that both the sire and dam were carriers. JMO
Thanks again, Diane, for sharing and giving us, the GSP fancy, an opportunity to learn.
Sue
-----Original Message-----
From: dise454@aol.com
To: gsp-l@shorthairs.net
Sent: Thu, May 26, 2011 10:54 am
Subject: Re: [gsp-l] The Dilute Gene for Brown Goes Waaaaaaaay Back.
Diane, You did a great thing coming forward and I respect and applaud you for it. People who throw false accusations aren't worthy of your time or a second thought. I for one don't think you had an oops breeding, but honestly if someone did it would be ok, things happen and people shouldn't be stoned for it, they just need to deal with it in a respectful manner. It is how someone handles a situation that builds their character, not by their mistakes (or by some genetic issue that is beyond our control) . You've handled this very well and there are a lot of people supporting you.
-----Original Message-----
Now you guys have me totally confused with the Emails going in circles. I dont think I like what you might be implying . . . . . do you honestly think that Liza had an "opps" breeding as well as being bred to my dog Polo ??? Do you honestly think that the 4 gray and white, patched and ticked puppies I have are sired by some mystrey dog and the 3 liver and white, patched and ticked puppies are sired by Polo ??? Are you suggesting that I DNA every puppy as well as the MLPH coat color gene test ??? Both Polo and Liza are already DNA tested and on record so there is no falsifying those records.
Please clarify, thank you - Diane / Panamint GSPs
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