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NoDak_Texan
Posts:2
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| 12/26/2010 2:35 PM |
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Hey guys, I'm new to the forum and I've had my 3 month old GSP pup a week. I'm an avid pheasant hunter and want to get Molly (my pup's name) started on birds. I have a LOT of pheasant wings and tails in my deep freeze from this year's season, and she just wants to bite and chew them. I'm wanting to induce a point, and get her really wanting the birds. I play with her everyday with a wing but, again, she just wants to chew it, so I take it away before she gets the chance to. Also, she has no interest in retrieving, as I've tried with different things to get her to. She's still kind of skiddish of me, maybe that's the problem. Anyway, any help or advice would be much appreciated, thanks. |
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Max2
Oneonta NY
MH
Posts:1111
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| 12/26/2010 3:47 PM |
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| Max and I want to be the first to say welcome ! |
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Chris |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7841
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| 12/26/2010 8:02 PM |
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At 3 months old she is still a baby. Relax and let her be a puppy for a while. I would forget the wings and such and introduce her to live birds (but not pheasants). I had my puppies introduced to quail at 6 weeks and 8 weeks and again at 10 weeks. I now am using pigeons with them. I actually had three of the pups out on birds today. Mine are now 4.5 months olds. This is my girl, Fauna.
The only time Fauna ever saw a wing was when she was about 4 - 5 weeks and I threw wings into the puppy pin just so they could get the scent. After that they have been on nothing but live birds.
My suggestion would be to find someone that understands how to train these dogs and work with them. You might want to see if there is a NAVDHA club or AKC club in your area. You will find lots of folks willing to help in the clubs.
As for retrieving I start by playing ball in a hallway with no distractions. I toss the ball and as soon as the puppy gets the ball I call them back to me and make a party of them bringing me the ball. In a hallway they can't go around you or get away so it helps get them coming back. Also, don't take the toy from them right away when they get to you. Play with them first so they do not have a bad experience in bringing the toy to you and then you take it. Where's the fun in that? Eventually you can move to a different area.
Just remember to have fun with the pup and keep any training short and fun. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
   
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4450
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| 12/27/2010 6:01 AM |
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Welcome to the forum. She looks cute.
What is your experience with dogs and hunting them? What is your goal with her?
What training program do you plan to follow?
Francine |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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NoDak_Texan
Posts:2
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| 12/28/2010 3:01 AM |
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I grew up hunting ducks and dove with my dad's Labs. Having a pointer is a new experience for me, they are less dependent than Labs and definitely have a mind of their own. I have hunted behind some friend's GSPs for pheasant, partridge, and grouse and was really impressed with their nose, drive, energy, and willingness to please.
A friend of mine let me borrow some DVDs, The Perfect Start and The Perfect Finish. I really like their approach to training and how thorough they are with the dogs they train in the videos. I've watched all the videos at least half a dozen times, and plan to start training Molly in March or April when she'll be 6 or 7 months old. Just like in the videos, I'll be using pigeons to train her, so that is when I'll start her on live birds.
The end result I want with Molly is a hunting dog that I can count on in the field.
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Max2
Oneonta NY
MH
Posts:1111
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| 12/28/2010 4:37 AM |
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One request.
Post a bigger picture of her. |
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Chris |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7841
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| 12/28/2010 7:14 AM |
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I also use the same methods that are used in PS and PF for training. It works so well and is very intuitive. I use pigeons most of the time too, but will buy quail from time to time. The place I train has homing pigeons I can use at no cost.
I second bigger and would add more pictures!! |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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trueblushorthairs
MH
Posts:129
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| 12/29/2010 8:18 AM |
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Several suggestions, forget any wings, they smell nothing like real birds. Forget most anything you learned training a retriever. Get the pup out to explore and let her learn to hunt, meaning let her run, explore, range out, and find out the world won't hurt her. Keep her to the front by turning if need be while you walk. If she goes back on you, just YO her and get her going the right direction. Find someone with pigeons who can help you and put her on a few birds, meaning let her chase a few by dropping them, teasing her with them, so she can get fired up. If you "plant" them, very lightly dizzy them, we don't want her to catch them. Be cautious that she doesn't get hit with a flapping wing. If you can get some hard flying jumpy pen quail, free release them and let her hunt and find them with as little hacking as possible.
You will read and hear, "birds, birds, birds". This is true of wild birds. NOTHING teaches a dog like wild birds. Not too many pen birds, particularly if she starts catching. If she can't catch them, she'll start pointing, IF she is bred decently.
The only question I would have is...what is her breeding, parents, grandparents are all that matters? Is she from hard hunted wild bird stock, hunted all year, is she from true field trial breeding with FCs in her close lineage, are her parents MH titled??? If she is a show dog you may have a long tough road ahead.
I would advise you to ask a lot of questions, buy Delmar Smith, Ferrell Miller, Earl Crangle, books and videos, AND best advice, find someone who can guide you who has trained a ton of nice dogs. Have this person work his dogs, see them point, hold, have him kill birds over them, and see how truly well trained they are AND make sure this person has actually trained these dogs. Do the dogs have style, love their owner, love to retrieve, etc. |
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Thom Gordon
Sandy, Utah
SH
Posts:44
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| 12/29/2010 9:05 AM |
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I guess the only prob I have with the DVD's Perfect Start & Finish is pigeons are not wild birds. For the most part their method is the one is use.Most game birds love to run and do not hold well. A pup needs to learn this and it can only be taught by wild birds. Chukar, quail, Phez are notorious runners and while my Creek is steady with the Jon & Cindy Hann method he'll start creeping in on wild Chukar due to they don't stay put. If they hold, he'll hold. He needs to learn how to hold these wild birds and keep them from running. So I would also like to emphasize getting your pup on wild birds as much as possible, if possible. |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4450
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| 12/29/2010 9:26 AM |
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There is no way a dog is going to hold a bird that is pointed more than 10' or so away.
If a bird is going to move it will. You want the dog to stalk at this point and if the bird is getting away I want the dog chase and pressure it to flush ASAP!.
I can't understand why some require a dog not to move when a bird is obviously making distance between them and the dog. A dog with experience and intelligence will learn to handle this situation properly and let us know where the bird is headed.
Most birds will run or flush under pressure from a dog that is not on top of them. Especially when they begin to hear our footsteps approach.
Just my perspective and what I expect from my dogs. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Thom Gordon
Sandy, Utah
SH
Posts:44
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| 12/29/2010 9:45 AM |
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Yeah, I like them to adjust to hold or creep on movin birds but not to bust. I've watched him do it on a few occassions where there is an intial point, birds run, he moves up points again, birds keep on moving, pup gets frustrated and busts the birds. Pics of the example
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Thom Gordon
Sandy, Utah
SH
Posts:44
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| 12/29/2010 9:49 AM |
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I guess point being is wild birds are the professors |
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trueblushorthairs
MH
Posts:129
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| 12/30/2010 8:08 AM |
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Just remember you have to train the dog to whatever level you need for the birds you will hunt. Where we hunt, a dog that is "on top of them" is going to cause the birds to flush. A dog that chases will only cause birds to run or flush. Dogs do need to learn to handle birds, period, and this can only be done on wild birds for wild birds. If one hunts preserves, it may be all completely different, but I only hunt wild birds. A good dog who has seen a ton of wild birds will learn to properly handle them, whether it be stalking until they do hold, but he also must learn to not get too close. I've had dogs take a wide berth around a running covey of bobs and blues, then come back at them to stop them in their tracks. But, this is usually a very experienced dog who knows what to expect.
I don't know many wild bird dogs that won't move on a running covey or running wild pheasant. But, the dog must learn how to handle the situations through experience.
I agree Thom, pigeons are not a replacement for wild birds. My pups will typically see 100 plus coveys of wild birds before they see a pigeon or pen raised quail. Then, breaking is done on pigeons, then back on wild birds to teach them even more. For most, it's hard to have enough wild birds to break a dog on wild birds. |
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