I have an almost 2 year old male GSP. I will be possibley hunt testing him through either AKC or NAVHDA or NSTRA this spring/summer . I want opinions from some of you about using him as a possible stud dog. If we decided to do this in the future I am going to get all the health clearances done, Hips,elbows, thyroid and eyes. Assumeing he passes on these what kind of weight does a prospective purchaser of a pup out of two great hunting dogs normaly give to if the dogs would do well in the show ring?

The reason I ask is Moose (my male) is not a show ring dog. He paddles in the front but I know of many hunters who would take him over a show dog any day as he is AMAZING in the field. At a year old we were asked to guide an all day pheasant hunt by a land owner.

I guess I am wondering are hunting titles enough for the general puppy owner?

To me the ultimate value of a dog is what's under the hood. I like to see a heavy dose of performance tested dogs in the pedigree but maybe not for the reason most would assume... those letters are the best proof I can get that the ancestors have handled some degree of pysical and mental stress and still go on to perform a complex task better than average. In the case of FT letters it's also some indication of athletic ability.

Show dogs move funny to my eye so I don't think much of all that, but that's what I get for hanging around mushers.

Once one averages out the cost over the lifetime of the dog, the initial cost is chump change compared to everything else. My husband and I always advise folks to look long and hard for the dog they really want from a breeder that shares their values, then just write the check.... we haven't met a person yet that did it that way and regretted spending the money.

When my husband and I were looking for a pup we were going to spend the $$ for all those requirements even though our dog was going to be primarily a trail dog and companion.  We wound up finding the more solid liver coloring that we wanted closer to home and arriving at a better time for us as I wanted to be home with a puppy while I was off this summer from teaching.  We found a breeder who had a full bloodline, papers, health checks for around $600.  We just got lucky.  He primarily breeds for hunting, but he did have some show winners in his bloodline as well.  He was a veterinarian  though and could do a lot of the microchipping and vet work himself which could have offset some of the costly fees.  I do agree though it is better to pay a little more upfront knowing you have a breeder who is going to back their dogs. I think sometimes there are good breeders who charge a little less and if you do your homework you may find one....but it is good to beware of the backyard breeder which can cost you a lot more money and heartache later on!!! 

The reason we got a purebred dog was to ensure that we would get a dog that was as true as possible to his breed standard. After 2 years of investigation, my husband decided that a GSP was the best match for our lifestyle and personalities.

While we admittedly didn't know much about the different titles a dog could have, his mother's line has champions back at least 3 generations. To me this indicated that the breeder was concerned that the puppy come from the best dogs representing the breed. Whether it is conformation or hunting, I think the being a champion indicates that the dog is true to his breed. Whether or not Bo had champions in his lineage, we would have gotten him after meeting Mom and Grandad. We just loved their personalities and Bo was just a super little puppy.

We won't be hunting over our dog (or breeding), but knowing that he has champions in his lineage, as well as all the health certifications, gave us the confidence that he would be a smart, athletic dog that would fit right in with our family.

Whether other "customers" would do the research is a case-by-case question I would guess. The hunters I have met, definitely know their dogs' lineage and are VERY particular in what lines they will select a pup from. I guess my point is, know who your market is -- people looking for pets may not care if the dogs have champion lineage; people looking for hunting dogs may be more picky.

All I want to say is from MY personal feeling: I think everyone has a good point. I had my first litter by accident(like Beth) I had wanted to get my health certs first of course. And will be before I breed again. I sold 8 of the ten for $300 - $350. After the vet bills etc, I may have broken even if I am lucky. I really was not into this for the money. I LOVE this breed and enjoy working with it and will hopefully make it out to some trials this year!

I do want to say however again that some of us donot have the money and or time to take ours to field trials/ events. The dogs may or may not be capable of doing well in the field. If they are like mine and I know Hunter will do great. It doesn't mean that he is not as good as another one. I applaud all the time and research that goes into the running and upkeep of the show and trial dogs. You are making the breed better as far as that goes. Just please don't dismiss us little people who are starting out.

There are people out there just looking for pets as are those looking for hunters too! Some of mine went to both sides. I am trying to learn more and I appreciate all the help. I am very excited about my new girl this spring as she has tons of FC/NFC/AFC in her blood through 4 generations and I know she will make an awesome bird dog. I do plan on triaaling her especially!

I am paying in the middle range($650) so I am happy with that and the bloodline is phenominal.   I had checked into Mabe Kennels ($800 avg) for a pup, and I checked into Westwind which were like $1000 and up) if I could've afforded one there for sure I would have bought one of theirs. I hope we can all be friends with our own opinions. We are all in it for the GSPs anyways!

How about crossing a FC AFC with an untitled dog? Do you feel that isn't worthy? I mean if all the health tests are done and the other dog is correct and a great hunter?

I am going to cross my female with Mocha's sire. He is not titled but is From Hege=haus and enzstrand lines. He is wide chested and an awesome hunter. Should produce some great dogs. Atleast I think so.

Again, please don't dismiss us/me because mine are not FC. I wish I had the time. Mine are trained in obedience, and hunting. I really do appreciate everyone else's opinions & help.

Bill

As I am new to this board, I am not new to breeding. I have been in Shothairs for over 30 yrs. I usually don't respond to these things because I like to keep my life pretty private but thought I would give my 2 cents here. I have went to your website & looked at the pictures and info you have given on your dogs and pups. I have also read several things written by you and others, including in archives. I'm not real sure why you would consider your Moose as a stud dog. I'm not trying to be insulting at all, because he may be the greatest pet you'll ever have and may be just a wonderful boy to you and yours. This does not make him a good prospect for a stud dog. You repeatedly speak of how you are trying to better the breed, but yet constantly say how you disagree with several others who are trying to give you some helpful advice. There is a lot more to breeding a dog than simply putting a male and female together who are registered of the same breed. I first have to ask why your Moose hasn't had ANY of his health checks at all. At the age of 1 yr you can go to almost any local dog show in AKC and have your dog's eye cerf and heart cerf done. This is something any reputable breeder should have done, without question. Each of these tests does cost money, usually about $35 plus any fees needed to send to OFA.  At the age of 2 yrs any reputable breeder will get both the hips and elbows OFA certified to make sure if all is good there (before) a breeding is to take place. There is also a very important test only done through opti-gen for the eyes to make sure the dog doesn't have what's known as CD, which can cause blind dogs/pups. Even if you have an accidental breeding such as you say you did, there is no reason you would not be able to at least have your male cleared of all of this while you await the new arrivals. If you are really trying to better the breed, why wouldn't you do your homework 1st and only want to breed dogs who do fit the standard in every way possible? Read and re-read your standard and see if your boy or girl (dam of litter) really do fit. From what I could see of what you have on your web site your best  (only) prospect for any breeding would be your young pup (Blitz?). That would only be pending all of his health clearences and also depending on his temperament to your family and others with both 2 and 4 legs. IMO, I would spay your female and nueter your Moose and concentrate on your male pup for your future. I also would not even consider keeping any of the pups out of this young accidental breeding.

Bill, obviously letters don't tell the entire story. There are very good hunting dogs that don't have titles. Even in my performance bred GSPs you'll see most of the dams don't have letters. However, in talking with our breeder, he could give us very detailed information about how those females worked in the field. Since he had been a FT judge for years I figured he knew far more about what a 'good' bird dog looks like than I do.

However, this underscores another aspect of breeders that isn't often discussed: TRUST. Would I have trusted Clay if he'd been across the country? Dunno. But I'd gone to the his house, seen how he cared for and interacted with his dogs, and it was very obvious that this was a very reasonable and experienced dog man. And as the conversation strayed it was also obvious that his priorities in animals was very similar to mine. So... good enough. I went back and bought 2 more dogs from him so obviously we were happy with what we got, as have some very active field trail folks in our region.

I also don't think that price tag is directly comparable to the quality of the pup recieved. One can often find reasonably comparable litters asking anywhere from $400 to $1000. I'm ambivalent about that since dog ownership isn't cheap and neither is breeding, and in either case they're most likely not making a profit. If breeders stick some truely astronomical number on their pups I most likely won't even consider them, but I also don't begrudge folks trying to offset some of their expenses and/or using the open market to 'screen out' some potentially less serious buyers.

I agree that there is a happy medium.  I would be willing to pay the $$ if I found the right dog, but I am also very happy with my pup at $600 because I saw all the  hip, eyes and otehr health clearances...along with many FC, SH, JH and other showtitles in his pedigree certificate.   I was also extremely happy with the parents dispositions.  I think it just takes doing your homework and finding a dog that suits your needs in your budget.  I do agree that while my breeder was a vet and could do many vaccinations and procedures on his own, he may be able to charge a little less.  I do have respect for those breeders that are putting all that money in and if you do you have a right to charge what you do.  It is up to someone else to decide if it is the right pick for them.