But true to type refers to true to the breed type not true to a line's type.  So, if we breed short eared to short eared all we are doing is getting further and further from the intention of the standard.

ANYONE who breeds dogs who have produced non-liver dogs is not responsible.  But, IMHO, the same can be said for those who breed shorthairs who won't point, who have to be "taught" to point(STAND), who breed dogs that are oversized, undersized, etc. etc.

I do believe that all breeders should have to have a Healthgene test before they breed any dog, but only MO.

You didn't ask if the subsequent pups would meet the breed standard nor remain true to the type expressed in that standard.  You're mixing terms here.
 

If you have one generation that expresses a non-typical trait, but that trait does not appear in subsequent generations, then the subsequent generations are remaining true to type as expressed in terms of the breed standard.

Quite often though you will get a significant portion of the offspring which will express that non typical trait, and thus the subsequent generations are not all remaining true to type.

This is why AKC's program for foundation stock requires I believe five generations before they will acknowledge fully the creation of a new breed, as it takes about five generations to see if your hybrid is going to breed true to type with any consistency.

No question about it. I still think that the place to start, and it would be easily done, is to simply start requiring DNA on all breeding stock.
 

We can't undo whatever shenanigans have occurred in the past, but we could very easily start protecting the integrity of "pure breeds" for the future beginning tomorrow IF AKC wanted to do so.

No question Charlie.  Still funny to me that one of the only groups that require DNA testing is the FIELD TRIAL GSP owners, to run at Nationals.  Exactly where the fingers have been pointed for years.

Posted By pixie bee on 09/03/2010 5:35 AM
Can't argue with that.

Except......

When refering to type in pure bred dogs it is what makes a breed a breed - the characteristics that define a standard.  

An individual doesn't remain true to type.  "True to Type" refers to subsequent generations producing the same trait.

Not sure I follow your logic.

If GSPs for the next 10 years produced short ears, that this would become the new type?

You didn't ask if the subsequent pups would meet the breed standard nor remain true to the type expressed in that standard.  You're mixing terms here.

wildrose is in blue. pixie bee is in green.

I don't have to mention it specifically b/c TYPE only means one thing -When refering to type in pure bred dogs it is what makes a breed a breed - the characteristics that define a standard.  

I thought TYPE was understood at the onset.  

An individual dog must remain true to type. This is the only way to produce type within a breed. There can only be one type within a breed. There can not be a "line" that is not true to type. Such as the ear example. Individual dogs may be stronger or weaker in type.Type is not personal preference,fads or whatever. I would think it is very scary to walk into a show ring and the judge has their own opinion of what type is. This may leave the breeder to breed out of type.

The standard still remains the same - a guidline for maintaning type.

I agree with all regulations that prove lineage. A color that is proven to be a true color is acceptable to me,and I'm sure to most. The acceptance of a color based on theory is not something I will support, especially when a dog lacks type.

I follow the FCI standard - when I breed I will produce blacks - which is recognized by the FCI standard. Each breeder must breed to type within the standard they follow.

As an example - I believe my dogs to be true to type.

An individual's type does not change once they are born.  They are the expression of their genetics.

"True to type"will not change therefore in an individual, it is a term used to describe the subsequent generations.

An individual either is true to the breed type or it's not.

An atypical, non standard dog when bred may or may not produce offspring that revert back to the breed type.  In most cases at least some of those offspring though will share/express the non-typical, non-standard trait.

Bad bites are a great example.  We have a number of heavily bred sires in the breed with poor to terrible bites.  That is an atypical, non-standard trait.  The subsequent off spring of those sires frequently express that same trait, but not all will.  However even those offspring that do not express that trait will pass it along and a number of their offspring will produce that same non-standard, atypical, and undesireable trait.

 

Yep and if GSPCA and AKC wanted to they could easily start requiring even more.

The only reason I can see as to why AKC doesn't already require DNA on all breeding stock is the fear of losing revenue from the reduction in number of litters registered.

With "new registries" with no real requirements to prove pure breed lineage popping up no doubt they are correct.

All positive steps in the right direction.

Thanks Belle, I wasn't sure if other breeds require DNA testing and wasn't sure that they did for conformation, agility, etc.

Someone said it is a shame that the AKC allows lemon or allowed this registrationLemon is not a choice on the paperwork.  Further, the AKC is not the breed police, the GSPCA is the breed police.  However, the GSPCA cannot police individual litters.  The registration papers for GSPs include combinations of liver and lemon is not a choice.  So, the owner had to fib on the paperwork to register the dog, and called it liver, which it clearly is not.  That is, IF, the dog is registered. Now, you say the pups were offered as registered or unregistered, was THIS pup offered as registered?

An individual's type does not change once they are born.  They are the expression of their genetics.

"True to type"will not change therefore in an individual, it is a term used to describe the subsequent generations.

An individual either is true to the breed type or it's not.

True to type describes prior and present generation.

An atypical, non standard dog when bred may or may not produce offspring that revert back to the breed type.  In most cases at least some of those offspring though will share/express the non-typical, non-standard trait.

This is a scary thought.Is this considered responsible breeding?

Bad bites are a great example.  We have a number of heavily bred sires in the breed with poor to terrible bites.  That is an atypical, non-standard trait.  The subsequent off spring of those sires frequently express that same trait, but not all will.  However even those offspring that do not express that trait will pass it along and a number of their offspring will produce that same non-standard, atypical, and undesireable trait.

Why is a dog with bad bites being bred?      

All this talk about DNA and the GSPCA seems to have a number of heavily bred sires in the breed with poor to terrible bites.

Is this a concern for the GSPCA? who is to regulate this? and why has it been allowed to continue? How does a prospective buyer know sire's,grandsire's,etc fault history? Why are mouths not checked at events,especially when these events are responsible for so many field dogs - the corner stone of the breed?Are too many entries the reason for the lack of quality breeding? Seems a bit slack,to me.

Off my soap box.

 Absolutely Bruce, and if you don't believe us just spend some time perusing the gsp-l posts from the last few weeks.  

***

Note -- that is not true -- the GSPCA requires all entries of ALL GSPCA National Events where GSPs only are entered to have a DNA entry on the entry form.  This includes the National Specialty Show (conformation), NSS Agility trial, even the "veterans obedience" entries at the NSS must have DNA numbers.  That means the obedience only exhibitor that had a GSP spayed/neutered at 6 months old, did obedience for a few years, and wants to exhibit their obedience GSP at the National Specialty Show must obtain a DNA test on that veteran entry.  SO -- all GSPCA events require this -- NOT JUST Field Trial GSP owners.