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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4476
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| 07/14/2010 7:10 AM |
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Question:
if you knew that at least one dog from one of your breedings has serious dog/dog aggression, would you repeat the breeding?
What is the general thought on this behavior - is it bred in or learned?
Francine |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7927
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| 07/14/2010 9:29 AM |
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pixie - Hmmmm, I think that depends, and it is complicated. I think there can be a genetic component, but I also believe that in some dogs this is learned behavior. I work with lots of handlers and puppies and in almost every class there is a dog that is dog aggressive. I have had great luck in turning this behavior around if the handler works with me, but not always. I believe in the cases where we successfully turn the dog around, that the problem is largely due to the lack of socialization. So, to answer your second question I would say both. Something else I have anecdotally observed is some dogs react to specific breeds. I have border collie in my current class that has a real problem with boxers, but seems ok with other breeds, and the hard part is we have 4 boxers in the current class. The owner is not aware of anything that may have happened in the past with her dog and boxers, but he sure does react to that specific breed.
As to your first question, if the problem was serious and I had not been able to work with the dog and turn the issue around, then no I would not breed the dog. I would probably take it a step further and do some research on the pedigree of the dog to see if there were any other temperament issues cropping up in the line. I am assuming that medical issues have also been ruled out. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
   
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4476
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| 07/14/2010 10:38 AM |
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Bev,
I tend to agree with everything you have said.
Can there be pack drive issues at play? It's an almost 2 year old GWP. Talented hunter and intelligent. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7927
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| 07/14/2010 11:59 AM |
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There might be if the owner has not established themselves as the obvious leader to the pack. If a dog is uncertain in their standing they will often react aggressively trying to define their own place in the pack. Also, this could be a very fearful dog with little self confidence. Allot of dogs with confidence issues will be dog aggressive. You mention the dog is a talented hunter, how does he do running in a brace or with more than one dog? Is he aggressive to a specific breed? Did anything happen when he was young that might make him fearful of other dogs?
I had an incident happen when Ringo was under a year. We were doing our CGC test and the friendly dog literally attacked Ringo. For a long while later anytime he encountered another big male dog he immediately would become offensive. I had to work to get him over that incident. So, if something like that happened and wasn't addressed at the time, the dog may have progressed to where he is today. Not necessarily genetic in this case, but more of a learned behavior. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4476
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| 07/15/2010 7:08 AM |
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Ah, I think he may have been bullied by his older 1/2 brother before he was bought.
He does seem to display,very subtle tho, some behavior that could be viewed as insecurity. He is okay with other dogs once he meets and greets. He can hunt with other dogs w/o problems - he has no issues with my 2 intact boys.
I'll run this info by the owner and see if it makes sense to him.
Is more sociaization the medicine?
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7927
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| 07/15/2010 9:40 AM |
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| More than likely more socialization would help. Probably a good obedience class would start the process. Doesn't sound like the dog is too bad, but needs to understand the proper way to greet other dogs. Just make sure the owner works on the dog focusing on the owner when doing this. The owner has to become the center of the universe for the dog. Also, the owner will have to be on their toes and constantly watching their dog ready to intercede before anything happens. I see allot of owners get to talking in class and not paying attention to what their dog is doing and then they have problems. It is easy to do, so just make sure your friend stays on their toes with this dog as they work through the problem. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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DesertRoseKennel
MH
Posts:1033
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| 07/15/2010 12:55 PM |
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While I'm sure it's both genetics and environment that contribute to severe dog/dog aggression, the answer to me is NO without a doubt. I will not tolerate dogs that can't interact with other dogs in a civilized manner and would not use such a dog in breeding. Better safe than sorry. |
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"Our dogs are bred to be champion hunters who sleep on the bed"
www.desertrosekennel.com |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4476
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| 07/15/2010 1:49 PM |
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I would only consider not breeding a dog if it were proven genetic - and in some cases it is genetic. In this case I just don't know and I spoke with the breeder and they feel it is environmental - but of course, genetics has to play some part. But, no dog being perfect and if this being caused by an outside factor and most likely not to be passed genetically, maybe it's ok. But, if he were bullied by his brother - well - what's up with that? So, the breeder has decided not to psychoanalyze and will repeat the breeding.
Bringing this almost full circle to the other thread about pet only breedings.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7927
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| 07/15/2010 2:47 PM |
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pixie - I think it depends allot on the dog and how you read the dog. I don't tolerate any aggressive behavior and if any of mine try to assert they are called on it immediately. I do not see that as a flaw, normal dog behavior and boundary testing (kind of the same thing kids do). That said, if the owner does not manage their dogs correctly you can end up with an assertive and potentially aggressive dog. Circumstances can also cause similar behavior as seen by many rescues or shelter dogs. In most cases the behavior can be corrected or at least mitigated. Again, not necessarily genetic, but environmental. On the other hand, there are some dogs that do have genetic issues and largely those are not correctable and get worse as the dog ages. It is very hard to give a checklist in such a way that says if you answer yes to these questions your dog has a problem with aggression and it is genetic. Almost need an animal behaviorist to do an evaluation coupled with an analysis of the other litter mates, parents and other dogs in the pedigree. If the dog is then found to be aggressive and there is a pattern, then the answer for me is very clear- don't breed. Of course, I would come to the same conclusion for an extremely backward/shy dog after a similar evaluation.
As for pet only breedings, I would not do a breeding just to sell for pets. There are way too many pets already available. In fact, I won't breed unless there is something I particularly want in a breeding. As for placing the remaining dogs in the litter, I don't have a preference between show and pet homes, but more important to me is a good home for my puppy. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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DesertRoseKennel
MH
Posts:1033
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| 07/15/2010 6:09 PM |
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My problem is this: How can you know for certain it's genetic? It's not that straight-forward. Now, I'm not talking about dogs with alpha tendencies but still get along all right with other dogs, I'm talking about true dog-dog aggression here. That I would not tolerate and would not repeat the breeding. Posturing, sticking up for yourself and being alpha rather than always subordinate is a different thing.
Example: I have two female littermates, Willow and JuneBug - who have stood up tall and postured at each other every single day of their lives when they are first let outside together in the morning. It never escalates to fighting or biting. I don't have to intervene. This to me is alpha behavior and is just two girls still trying to work out who's in charge. Seeing as how they are 8.5 years old, I expect it's a lifetime thing. This to me is not worth worrying about where breeding is concerned. But both of them can be hunted, competed and socialized with all other dogs and have no issues.
If you are talking about something like above, then breeding is probably fine. If you mean true dog-dog aggression documented on more than one occasion, that dog would not be in my breeding program. Similarly, if the dog produced such a pup, I would not repeat the breeding.
Jean |
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"Our dogs are bred to be champion hunters who sleep on the bed"
www.desertrosekennel.com |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7927
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| 07/15/2010 8:12 PM |
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Jean -
The example you gave IMHO is not dog - dog aggression. I see that sometimes with mine as well. That is just jockeying for position in a pack, and normal dog behavior. True dog - dog aggression that is inherited is often hard to determine. That is why you need to know about the littermates, parents and other dogs in the pedigree. I rarely see what I would consider an inherited dog - dog aggression problem. More often than not what I have encountered in obedience classes is a problem brought on by the environment (and usually the owner) the dog has been raised in/with. I know this could possibly raise a firestorm, but the cases I have seen that I believe are true inherited dog - dog aggression have always been in mixed breeds where no one really knows the pedigree of the dog. Which IMHO is why buying from a reputable breeder who can talk about the dogs in the pedigree, where you can meet the parents of a litter, etc. is preferable to either getting a dog from a shelter or a back yard breeder. Getting a dog from rescue would be my second option as the rescue groups do a pretty good job of evaluating the dogs they get. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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DesertRoseKennel
MH
Posts:1033
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| 07/15/2010 9:40 PM |
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I totally agree - what I described is pack behavior. But sometimes you see people having much different definitions for dog-dog aggression. Pack behavior = normal , whereas true dog-dog aggression is unacceptable.
Jean |
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"Our dogs are bred to be champion hunters who sleep on the bed"
www.desertrosekennel.com |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4476
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| 07/16/2010 7:07 AM |
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What do you think of what happened to haiko and me the other day:
before I step out of our door I check left and right for any people that we may walk into AND 'bad boys', there are a few around. I see the woman with the massive pit about 20' and approaching fast - she waves me back in the door. The door panel is plexi glass. As she passes the pit sees Haiko and slams his head into the plexi and is very aggressive - Haiko reacts the same. The woman has given slack to the leash b/c she can not hold him back and after about 5 seconds she is able to pull him away.
This pit's head is the size of a cinder block and he must weigh around 90lbs.
I got really scared when I heard his head hit the plexi.
The dog has also growled at people and made attempts to lunge at them.
In defense, the pit lives in a building with a GSD who displays the same tendencies. I see that the Carni Corso, about 1 1/2, in the same building, is displaying the same tendencies, as well. It is possible the GSD, who lived there first, has taught these dogs to behave this way. Maybe?
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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DesertRoseKennel
MH
Posts:1033
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| 07/16/2010 9:44 AM |
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Pixie - I am not disagreeing at all that dog aggression can be learned through life experiences. But my answer is still the same, I would not repeat the breeding because I would have no way to KNOW with certainty that it didn't have a genetic component.
That's not to say I don't want my dogs to protect themselves, I do. On a few occasions, they've had to and I've been proud that they used the "minimum required force" to end the situation. Thunder is very good for that - other males have jumped him and he is fast and strong. He pins the other dog and holds them down, essentially saying "Until you stop being an a**hole, I'm going to hold you down on the ground". When the other dog backs off, he stands down. THAT'S what I want to see when my dog has to deal with an aggressive dog.
Just my opinion.
Jean |
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"Our dogs are bred to be champion hunters who sleep on the bed"
www.desertrosekennel.com |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7927
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| 07/16/2010 10:15 AM |
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I agree with Jean. I don't want my dogs to be instigators, but I also have no problems with them defending themselves. The challenge I have right now with Ringo is he thinks everyone wants to play with him. Sometimes that is ok and sometimes not. He has a couple of times run up to dogs to play with very obvious play mannerisms and the other dogs have turned and attacked (who knows if that was learned behavior on there part, genetic, or they were scared, or being protective). In any case, Ringo's immediate response now is to do what Jean described, put the dog on the ground and hold until they calm down. He has learned that from Belle, my oldest, because that is what she used to do with Ringo when he would get over the top with her. I am ok with his behavior, but we are working on him not running up to play with every dog he sees. It's hard though because the girls indulge him and so he thinks all dogs will do the same.
As for your pit bull incident, learned behavior or genetic, it doesn't matter that is unacceptable behavior and a disaster waiting to happen if the owner does not get their dog under control. I have a friend who breeds Rottie's, another breed that has aggressive tendencies if not channeled right, and she is in control with her dogs and never lets down her guard. We have talked about her Rottie's and she believes they have to have obedience training, exercise and they need a job to focus on or they will develop undesirable behaviors. They are also prone to small dog sharpness as well and if not trained and socialized properly also ends up in behavior like the pit that you and Haiko encountered. I imagine that the environment with the other dogs is exacerbating the problem with the pit and their may definitely be a genetic component with the dog, but the breed itself has tendencies that if not channeled can end up with the behavior you experienced.
So IMHO if the dog is aggressive on its own, meaning the other dog did not start it, then I would probably opt not to breed the dog as it would be hard to determine if there is a genetic component in the mix. Of course, I also know how I train and how I manage my dogs and as the owner I am in constant control. So, I have eliminated some of the factors that go into contributing to dog aggressive behavior and I would know that something else was at work with my dog and his behavior. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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GermanPointerGappy
JH
Posts:21
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| 11/12/2011 7:03 PM |
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| I think it can be a mix of both. It can be genetically passed or learned. That's why it can be solved. |
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German Shorthaired Pointer training is something I need to put in my mind and heart to make it successful.
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