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rospigan
MH
Posts:372
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| 03/07/2010 9:46 AM |
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"There were three kinds of Rype to be found. Down low in
the stunted birch forest
were the Dale (Valley) Rype (Willow Parmigan), up a
bit higher in the windswept
Reindeer moss-covered rugged mountain sides were
Fjell Rype (literally Mountain
Ptarmigan but probably the Rock Ptarmigan),
and at the very tops of the most *&^%$
hard terrain to reach were a much
smaller and extremely cautious species the
Norwegians called "Skarv."
"
They must have been confused by the local Norwegian
expressions. As Maud explained we have 2 species of grouse, the willow grouse
and the ptarmigan living high up on the mountains. The common (not
local) Swedish and Norwegian names, directly translated to
English, are Valley Grouse and Mountain Grouse. However, there are
two types of "mountains" in the Scandinavian languages. There is the common
mountain that can be any rock formation with some height and covered or not
covered with forest , that we call "berg". Then we have the fjell, or fjäll
in Swedish, and that means a big mountain with a bare top and part of
the year or permanently covered with snow. Generally we Scandinavians would
not call a mountain in any other part of the world for a "fjell", like the
"alps" can only be found in the middle Europe. I have not found any
different words in English for those two types of mountains. I guess a
"mountain" must be big but a "rock" can be rather small also but none of them
must be bare and none of them must be covered with snow.
Anyway, now that we have grouse "on the wall-paper", as we
say in Sweden about a current subject, I have to tell about an old book I
borrowed from a friend. It is written by a Ludwig Munsterhjelm who lived in
Finland. He came out from the School for Agriculture and Forestry in 1902 and
started to make zoological research in the nature of Finland. Later he
seemed to have been both here and there around the world. He was also a keen
bird hunter, with and without different types of birddogs. I have not read that
many pages yet but have found several interesting points.
When he was young, around the year 1900, he could
without a dog often shoot twenty or more willow grouse in a day just by walking
them up. This was not done up on a fjell but down in the deep forest in middle
Finland. When he wrote the book, printed in 1943, it was already very difficult
to find willow grouse in forest even with good dogs. He blamed it on modernized
forestry and agriculture. The same thing we do today with even worse drop in
populations. But he also blamed it on an increasing hunting pressure. In the
past when Finland was very poor only a few had the time and could afford
gear (dog and shotgun and time to learn to use them) needed. As the
agriculture and forestry became more efficient peoples wealth increased and
hunting became popular.
Today you must go very far north in Finland to find willow
grouse and the bag limits are more or less symbolical and you can not be sure
that you can get any tickets at all. Their number is also limited.
The situation is today, due to rather
recent political decisions, nearly as bad in Sweden. The Swedish government
decided that all hunters in the Europe are welcome to hunt on state owned land
above and below the tree boundary in the Swedish fjell. There was not
enough of grouse for the local hunters, now we have the entire EU
here!
The Norwegians love grouse hunting and go out in
great numbers. That, together with industrial activity and modern forestry has
reduced the populations in Norway also and the bag limit is 1 or 2 per
hunter and and day. Rather miserable, indeed!
Sadly, I can not see any light in the future as far as
hunting wild birds in Scandinavia is concerned. Reared and put out
partridge and pheasants will take over the sport for most folks who can not
afford a helicopter ride into the deepest mountains where there still are some
decent populations of grouse.
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens kennel
"Ask not what your dog can do
for you,
ask what you can do for your dog"
www.rospigan.net
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jmurr
MH
Posts:158
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| 03/08/2010 3:21 AM |
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| Where does the "hazel grouse" I find here, for instance,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazel_Grouse fit in?
Are you thinking the fellow I quoted was wrong - his Dale Rype and Fjell rype were
the same bird (L. lagopus)in different habitats and the 'skarv' is the real
fjellrype - (L. mutus)? In a later post he commented his Norwegian bird books are
not with him now as he is in Kabul. Maybe he'll maintain contact and will look
there later.
We have many mountains you would call fjell here and in the western part of the
"lower 48" states. I think.
Jere
> "There were three kinds of Rype to be found. Down low in the stunted birch forest
> were the Dale (Valley) Rype (Willow Parmigan), up a bit higher in the windswept
> Reindeer moss-covered rugged mountain sides were Fjell Rype (literally Mountain
> Ptarmigan but probably the Rock Ptarmigan), and at the very tops of the most *&^%$
> hard terrain to reach were a much smaller and extremely cautious species the
> Norwegians called "Skarv." "
>
> They must have been confused by the local Norwegian expressions. As Maud explained
> we have 2 species of grouse, the willow grouse and the ptarmigan living high up on
> the mountains. The common (not local) Swedish and Norwegian names, directly
> translated to English, are Valley Grouse and Mountain Grouse. However, there are
> two types of "mountains" in the Scandinavian languages. There is the common
> mountain that can be any rock formation with some height and covered or not covered
> with forest , that we call "berg". Then we have the fjell, or fjäll in Swedish, and
> that means a big mountain with a bare top and part of the year or permanently
> covered with snow. Generally we Scandinavians would not call a mountain in any
> other part of the world for a "fjell", like the "alps" can only be found in the
> middle Europe. I have not found any different words in English for those two types
> of mountains. I guess a "mountain" must be big but a "rock" can be rather small
> also but none of them must be bare and none of them must be covered with snow.
>
> Anyway, now that we have grouse "on the wall-paper", as we say in Sweden about a
> current subject, I have to tell about an old book I borrowed from a friend. It is
> written by a Ludwig Munsterhjelm who lived in Finland. He came out from the School
> for Agriculture and Forestry in 1902 and started to make zoological research in the
> nature of Finland. Later he seemed to have been both here and there around the
> world. He was also a keen bird hunter, with and without different types of
> birddogs. I have not read that many pages yet but have found several interesting
> points.
>
> When he was young, around the year 1900, he could without a dog often shoot twenty
> or more willow grouse in a day just by walking them up. This was not done up on a
> fjell but down in the deep forest in middle Finland. When he wrote the book,
> printed in 1943, it was already very difficult to find willow grouse in forest even
> with good dogs. He blamed it on modernized forestry and agriculture. The same thing
> we do today with even worse drop in populations. But he also blamed it on an
> increasing hunting pressure. In the past when Finland was very poor only a few had
> the time and could afford gear (dog and shotgun and time to learn to use them)
> needed. As the agriculture and forestry became more efficient peoples wealth
> increased and hunting became popular.
>
> Today you must go very far north in Finland to find willow grouse and the bag
> limits are more or less symbolical and you can not be sure that you can get any
> tickets at all. Their number is also limited.
>
> The situation is today, due to rather recent political decisions, nearly as bad in
> Sweden. The Swedish government decided that all hunters in the Europe are welcome
> to hunt on state owned land above and below the tree boundary in the Swedish fjell.
> There was not enough of grouse for the local hunters, now we have the entire EU
> here!
>
> The Norwegians love grouse hunting and go out in great numbers. That, together
> with industrial activity and modern forestry has reduced the populations in Norway
> also and the bag limit is 1 or 2 per hunter and and day. Rather miserable,
> indeed!
>
> Sadly, I can not see any light in the future as far as hunting wild birds in
> Scandinavia is concerned. Reared and put out partridge and pheasants will take over
> the sport for most folks who can not afford a helicopter ride into the deepest
> mountains where there still are some decent populations of grouse.
>
> Torsti
>
>
> Borta Med Vindens kennel
> "Ask not what your dog can do for you,
> ask what you can do for your dog"
> www.rospigan.net
>
>
>
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rospigan
MH
Posts:372
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| 03/08/2010 6:46 AM |
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It fits into almost any forest area,
it is a typical forest bird. It is lively and a bit nervous and is usually
hunted by calling with a tiny whistle and a .22 long cal rifle or shotgun with
light load. You hide under a tree for ex. and call the bird in to expose itself
on neighbouring trees branches. Popular sport for young hunting boys and
girls. I have shot a few walked up and one for Springer the spaniel. They
have no patience with pointing dogs but can sometimes be bagged with a tree
barking birddog, the same way as caper.
We do not consider it as a "grouse"
but put it into the same category as the caper and black grouse, that is a
group we call "forest hens". Hazel grouse is about the size of a willow
grouse but more "round" in appearance. Good, but not fantastic eating. It is
also a "quick" and "trendy" and lively bird that makes you glad
when you see it .
>>>We
have many mountains you would call fjell here and in the western part of
the
"lower 48" states. I think.>><
When I think about it there is one
particular characteristic that makes a mountain into a "fjell". They are all
more or less smoothed out by the inland ice that covered us some time ago. You
do not see the sharp edges as much as you see in the Alps or the Rocky
Mountains or Himalaya. In Iceland they are also called fjell. The several
kilometres of ice ground them smooth and although they can be steep they
rarely have really sharp edges. If there are edges they probably formed after
the ice age when part of the cracked fjell sides fell down having been
under the stress from the weight of the ice. So if my private theory is
correct, then there should be fjell in Greenland, Canada and Alaska also.
It is sunny today and my mouth just fell open
when I saw that the outside temperature is +4,5 Celsius!
Wonderful!
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens kennel
"Ask not what your dog can do
for you,
ask what you can do for your dog"
www.rospigan.net
%202010\AntiSpam---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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jmurr
MH
Posts:158
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| 03/08/2010 12:12 PM |
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| >>>>Where does the "hazel grouse" I find here, for instance,
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazel_Grouse fit in?>>>
>
> They have no patience with pointing dogs but can sometimes be bagged with
> a tree barking birddog, the same way as caper.
That's the way my black pointing Lab., Storm, usually interacts with spruce grouse.
In his case I'm not so sure it is the bird that has a shortage of patience - I am
sure it is the dog! They are called fool hens here and do have a tendency to fly
into a tree and sit on a branch gawking at man or dog. So, when I hear him barking
in the spruce forest, I can usually find a spruce grouse in a tree somewhere near
where he's sitting! They are VERY difficult to shoot with a shotgun - even IF one
can make them fly. They dive off the branch and gain speed rapidly and the spruce
forest cover is usually very thick. I don't shoot them - very dark meat, and,
except for early in the fall, they taste like spruce!
>... Hazel grouse is about the
> size of a willow grouse but more "round" in appearance. Good, but not fantastic
> eating. ...
Is it really dark meat or nearly white? Our Ruffed grouse are nearly white. The
hazel grouse looks nearly like a spruce grouse with a ruffed grouse tail.
> It is sunny today and my mouth just fell open when I saw that the outside
> temperature is +4,5 Celsius! Wonderful!
We had that a couple of weeks ago. the grouse thought it was spring and had
started to pair up. All the snow was gone under the trees and had melted away to
the earliest ice layer. Then we had the 2' snow I told about, plowed the drive and
another foot fell last night - still snowing hard. The temperature is about -6C
now but rising.
Jere
>
>
> Torsti
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rospigan
MH
Posts:372
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| 03/08/2010 2:54 PM |
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I looked up your Spruce Grouse and it looks like a
cross between our hazel grouse and black grouse. Anyway the cock looks beautiful
resembling a black grouse cock and the hen looks like a caper hen. Someone must
have run them through a mixer in the past...
The hazel grouse has both white and dark meat. It
has been a few years since I cooked one now but for example the outer breast
muscle (pectoralis major in humans) is white while the inner breast muscle
(pectoralis minor) is dark.....or was it the other way? The leg
muscles are dark. And hence it is an interesting bird, half of it is wild
and the other half is a domestic chicken!
The meat is dry but can as always be fixed with a
lot of butter and cream, salt and pepper.
Maud remembers that she has actually shot a hazel
grouse over Foxy and had another change with Briz but refrained to do so since
the chicken Briz flushed was so small.
The most interesting forest hen I have ever
seen is a hermaphrodite AND a cross between a
caper and black grouse. It is mounted at the office of a game wholesaler
some 800 kms north from us. Its main appearance is that of a caper cock but the
dealer, who has seen a lot of game and is more or less an expert, showed me the
faint colour shift and shine on some feathers and said that this shine you
can only find in females. Unfortunately I did not have a camera with me
at that occasion but I am thinking about going there again to
photograph the strange bird. I could see that it was a cross since those crosses
are not that rare but I could not have seen the shift and strange shine in
colour witnessing of its double sex nature unless he had pointed it out for
me.
Hence one
can ask how rare are those combinations actually? If a normally educated bird
hunter shoots a cross he may not think much more about it but put it in the pot
and perhaps only mention it to his hunter friends. It could or could not
also be a hemaphrodite but he or she would not know or even think about the
possibility!
Nature is
interesting, fantastic, rude and merciless..
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens kennel
"Ask not what your dog
can do for you,
ask what you can do for your dog"
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jerry
JH
Posts:31
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| 03/08/2010 7:11 PM |
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| On 3/8/2010 5:53 AM, Jere Murray wrote:
> We have many mountains you would call fjell here and in the western part of the
> "lower 48" states. I think.
>
We have them here in the northeastern states as well. The difference is
that our mountains start at around
1,000 feet above sea level and go up to 6,000 feet. Those western
mountains start at 5,000 feet and go
up to 10,000 feet. They're still only about 5,000 feet high or so.
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Don Nicol
Posts:10
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| 03/08/2010 9:02 PM |
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Torsti,
I am familiar with the Scottish variant of the Ptamigan. Here it is in a nice site:
Don
http://www.arkive.org/ptarmigan/lagopus-mutus/ |
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jmurr
MH
Posts:158
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| 03/08/2010 10:10 PM |
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| The Red grouse of Scotland is a close relative of the willow grouse, a subspecie
-Lagopus lagopus scoticus. Interesting that it does NOT turn white in winter. That
arkive reference says the mutus male has that black mark between eye and bill - I
think that does not appear before the bird matures here - maybe 2 - 3 years.
sequencing DNA on these critters would be fun! One would have to collect specimens
from all over the northern latitudes...
Jere
RE: [working-gundog] Scandinavian grouse by Don Nicol
>
Torsti,
> I am familiar with the Scottish variant of the Ptamigan. Here it is in a nice
> site:
> Don
> http://www.arkive.org/ptarmigan/lagopus-mutus/
>
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Don Nicol
Posts:10
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| 03/08/2010 10:25 PM |
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I have been lucky to hunt Red Grouse over Shorthairs in Scotland and Ireland on the high heather moors, but i didn't see a Ptarmigan, they were even higher up, above 3000 ft in August/september.
Don |
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rospigan
MH
Posts:372
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| 03/08/2010 11:40 PM |
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Damn! I just found out that some mail, like the one
below, go automatically into the junk mail bin. We have the Windows 7
running on our new computer and have not become accustomed to it yet. We never
tried the Vista but jumped directly from WXP to W7. Hence we did not get a
pre-warning of all the new security features - we knew they will be there but
nothing about their nature.
Well, we have learned that it takes around 3 months
to set up a new installation of the XP to run all our applications smoothly.
Lets see how long it takes to set up the W7. It is still much better than the
W3.1, W95 or W98. Those installations were actually never
finished..... I am not sure whether we are stupid or perhaps have too many
applications :- )
Yes, that is a nice site and the Scottish ptarmigan
mirrors the pureness of the nature in the most skyward parts of the
highlands, the same way as our ptarmigan do. Truly a trophy game worth all
respect and consideration. Makes me longing for a ski and photo tour to the
Swedish fjell in April/May....
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens kennel
"Ask not what your dog
can do for you,
ask what you can do for your dog"
www.rospigan.net
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 5:35 AM
Subject: SubscribedEmail
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At 03/08/2010 9:02 PM a message was posted to a thread you were
tracking.
RE: [working-gundog] Scandinavian grouse by Don Nicol
Torsti,
I am familiar with the Scottish variant of the Ptamigan. Here it is in a
nice site:
Don
http://www.arkive.org/ptarmigan/lagopus-mutus/
To
view the complete thread and reply, please visit:
http://www.shorthairs.net/GSPForum/tabid/220/view/topic/postid/59063/ptarget/59168/Default.aspx
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you,
shorthairs.net
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