cooperdog
South Western North Carolina
SH
Posts:51
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| 03/17/2009 3:52 PM |
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We are currently doing off lease training using a Dogtra e-collar with Cooper. If anyone can recommend any good DVD/videos/books/articles on the subject please let me know . In our readings there are 2 trains of thought in the correct way of using the collar. 1. avoidance training when a command is given followed with low level continuous stimulation until the dog responds and stimulation ends (teaching dog to "turn stimulation off) 2. command is given, if the dog doesn't respond, a momentary stimulation is given followed by the command again (invisible lease). Which method, has anyone found better than the other?
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pixie bee
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Posts:4476
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| 03/17/2009 4:01 PM |
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Good questions.
first question I have is - does the dog already understand and perform the commands in several locations solidly?
Francine |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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cooperdog
South Western North Carolina
SH
Posts:51
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| 03/17/2009 4:06 PM |
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Cooper knows the commands that I want to use while walking off lease. He follows them in any location. I want to make sure that I am using the collar in the correct fashion. |
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lauralee
Plainfield, CT.
MH
Posts:449
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| 03/17/2009 5:12 PM |
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| I would say that if he already knows the command, then I would follow the 2nd option. I have always just used the e-collar as a reinforcement tool. I don't start out training with one, but there comes a time when GSP's tend to think, "Gee, I know what she wants me to do, but I don't want to do it right now" That's when I pull out the e-collar. I believe it shows them that your in control no matter how far away they are from you.. !! |
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smokin deuces
Shelbyville, KY
JH
Posts:37
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| 03/17/2009 5:27 PM |
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| We use the second method, its important they know why they are getting shocked and how to make it stop. |
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Will and Kathy White
Duke - 11 month old GSP
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=1727 |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4476
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| 03/17/2009 6:07 PM |
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There is a school of thought that forces the dog on a command. I use this method to get a reliable recall. I do not force the dog on anything else, altho, the method does produce great results. This method is often used by retriever trainers with tremendous results.
I use the e-collar sparingly, and only to reinforce a command at a distance.
You may ant to check out Evan Graham's training program. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7926
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WildRose
Seymour Texas
MH
Posts:471
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| 03/18/2009 1:10 AM |
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1. avoidance training when a command is given followed with low level continuous stimulation until the dog responds and stimulation ends (teaching dog to "turn stimulation off)
Best way I know to absolutely ruin a good pointing dog. The ONLY place in training pointing dogs this method should EVER be used is if you are going to use the collar to reinforce force fetch training.
This kind of pressure used around normal "birddog training" destroys the dogs confindence and consequently style. |
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There's a reason I like dogs better'n people... . |
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lauralee
Plainfield, CT.
MH
Posts:449
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| 03/18/2009 2:36 AM |
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WildRose, I couldn't agree with you more !! To many people use the e-collar wrong, using it too much, and at the wrong times in training. If using it while training to hunt, you've better know what your doing, because you could very well ruin a good hunting dog !!! I myself would get a trainer before using the e-collar for hunt training. It is my personal opinion that a dog should already know the command, before using a e-collar, I only use it to reinforce a correction that the dog already is familiar with. I also have found that with training pups, distance can be your greatest enemy. When the check cord comes off, the e-collar goes on. When you make that recall, and pup realizes that he isn't on a checkcord, it's nice to know that you will still have control if he decides not to listen to you.
No matter how you look at it, the e-collar is an uncomfortable stimulus, that's why it works !! It should never be used as a punishment, but rather as a reinforcement after the command has already been stated, if it is used without a command, it only will confuse,and make for a very insecure dog |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4476
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| 03/18/2009 4:30 AM |
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Wildrose's first sentence is not factual.I do not what experience he has had with this type of training and what base he is drawing from.I knowseveral pointing dog people who have used this method with good results.The method also teaches a dog to handle pressure. This reason alone is worth doing it.A dog who learns to handle pressure young will grow into a dog who can handle the pressures of advanced training with ease.
This method is called forcing and it not only creates momentum it creates style and absolute obedience on all forced commands.It is not harsh training and I would even say it is better then giving the "one jolt" correction at a distance.
It is not used in a hunting atmosphere. It is used during teaching basics. Sit,come,down,fetch,ect. Now, this in of itself is contrversial to pointing dog folks. Most pointing dog folk believe a pointing dog does not need to be taught basics,like a retriever. To each their own but I have taught both my dogs like retrievers and have had no issues. I do not force my dogs,other then on the recall. I don't b/c they have enough momentum,style and cooperation that I need. The results from forcing are tremendous and I have often thought of doing it with both dogs but I am not doing retriever trials so I see no reason to move foward with forcing. It is not the training but the quality of the trainer. If a pointing dog is "ruined" by forcing methods then the trainer is to blame.Period.
Francine
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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lauralee
Plainfield, CT.
MH
Posts:449
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| 03/18/2009 4:48 AM |
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| Francine, That is why I made the statement that I would not attempt to use an e-collar myself if I was training on hunting, I would have a professional, because I would be afraid of ruining the dog to birds. |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7926
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cooperdog
South Western North Carolina
SH
Posts:51
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| 03/18/2009 4:20 PM |
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Thank-you everyone for all of your input! I have been using method #2 which to me seemed more intuitive and by your response confirms that I am on the right track with my training with Cooper. |
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Rugergundog
Saginaw Michigan USA
MH
Posts:395
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| 03/18/2009 6:15 PM |
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I think both 1 and 2 have their place. Depends on what you are trying to accomplish; and how stubborn the animal can be.
I used the #1 method with my come command, force fetching and healing, chasing deer, etc.
I use the #2 with general correction at a distance; sort of to redirect attention back to me.
I agree that you shouldn't have to use the EC forever. Establish the training habit and then if all goes as planned you can move on from it.
Rick Smith uses both and i consider him one of the top experts if not the top in my book for bird dog training. Both are effective methods to train, thus why are remotes have both constant and tic. |
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Saginaw Michigan
Brittany- Ruger
GSP- Kilian |
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WildRose
Seymour Texas
MH
Posts:471
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| 03/18/2009 9:12 PM |
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Posted By pixie bee on 03/18/2009 4:30 AM
I do not what experience he has had with this type of training and what base he is drawing from.
The experience of training a couple of thousand dogs of more than a dozen different breeds with great success over the last thirty years or so.
Below is a partial list of the dogs I've placed with or won with in trials in nine states over the last three years.
Those are just my own dogs, not client dogs, and not all of mine. Just a partial list.
Any more questions? |
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There's a reason I like dogs better'n people... . |
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WildRose
Seymour Texas
MH
Posts:471
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| 03/18/2009 9:18 PM |
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Posted By lauralee on 03/18/2009 2:36 AM
WildRose, I couldn't agree with you more !! To many people use the e-collar wrong, using it too much, and at the wrong times in training.
Too many people use the collar as a remote control. Consequently whenever the battery runs down or the dog gets out of range suddenly the dog goes "berserk".
This is because the dog has been trained to respond to the collar and not the command.
Ecollars when used properly are fantastic tools for REINFORCING a known command and teach the dog that the commands must be followed even when off leash or beyond check cord reach.
The collar however is not a shortcut, nor is it a remote control.
You still have to actually TRAIN THE DOG! CR |
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There's a reason I like dogs better'n people... . |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4476
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| 03/19/2009 8:23 AM |
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You fail to realize that the training you are referring to is NOT the forcing method. You admitt you do not train this way. What base of experience do you have to draw on?
The forcing method DOES teach the dog to respond to the command, this IS the purpose of forcing, the only purpose.In this method the dog must know the commands and be effecient in several locations under distractions. Once the forcing is done, which takes 1 maybe 2 sessions,rarely requiring a reminder session, the dog will only require a correction occassionally.
quote:
"Too many people use the collar as a remote control."
How many people are too many, I don't know, but you seem comfortable speaking for them.
As far as a list of dogs trained, I can name several trainers who train with the forcing method and have achieved tremendous results, both pointing breeds and retriever breeds and these trainers are quite well known amounst dog trainers and handlers.In fact, you can buy their books and DVDs for referrence.
The above post does not support your premise. It only states that there are a number of people who are not good trainers with the e-collar.
It does not support either method of training, which,BTW, I support both methods. I find it odd that you would put down another method,one which does work.
The true debate is, tho, not how good a trainer,handler,judge and breeder wildrose is, the true debate is which method to use on an individual dog.
The answer is - which ever you feel comfortable with and your goals as a trainer and handler.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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