Recently came across a breeder who has a dog with a great personality.  this person is a full time trainer by profession (obed., field, etc).  His dog is 3 yrs old, has what I'll describe as a weak jaw (more pointy) nose than might be exected.  She's a 1/4 inch above the breed standard on height and 2 lbs under.  She's been bred with a champion who is strong in those respects where she's weak (above).  She points like no other (honoring points already), moves good in the field. 

Questions:

I guess there's no way to tell at age 8 weeks if a pup will have a head shaped to standard, right?

Apparently she was the pick of her litter and turned up with the weak head as she matured.  are the genetic odds stacked against us...that her pups will have the same features both good and below standard?    any experience here with litters who only had one weak dog in appearance?

for perspective we are pet companion folks may casual hunter just like to see dogs work in the field.  that's to say we are not concerned about conforming to every standard, but would like it since we are paying.

Look forward to hearing your thoughts!

A few thoughts - just how bad is her head shape? A picture would help if that was possible. Next, what type of champion was she bred to? Third, honoring at age two is nothing exciting - ours honor each other at age 6 weeks.

Ultimately, if your purpose is just a pet/companion dog, does it really matter that much? I'm assuming you would spay her?

Jean

My thoughts set within what you said:

I'm sure that's not the earliest point in history, but a reputable east coast breeder / handler / trainer was judging this dog when it honored twice in one brace from +30' away...the owner of the bitch was told to breeder her to carry forward that natural instinct / ability.

I'll say again, and this is my personal opinion so take it or leave it. This alone is NOT that impressive and is not enough to warrant breeding a dog, especially if she has a serious confirmation fault. Again, can't judge what I can't see so can't tell you just how bad it is. Our dogs (and lots of others that I've judged, so it is not unique) have been known to honor at 50-100 YARDS if the line of sight is clear. So 30 feet doesn't impress me greatly.

Bred to this sire for its head and overall physic. his goal is to improve upon the instincts of her and this sire and to get the head and size up to "normal".
sorry don't have a photo available.

hope that helps...any insight as to one litter to the next and seeing a the weak head go away? I don't think he's have bothered to haul the dam 4 hours away for breeding if he didn't think its off spring would conform more.

I'll ask it this way. how often does a dog with one feature "flaw" pass that along when bred well. I assume the answer is that it can carry fwd to the next litter or pop up in later litters (grand kids, etc). But if the process of breeding result in refinement and improvement...which is one of the goals of breeding pure breeds to improve the line...then we should expect a litter that is closer to bred standard (otherwise why would a responsible breeder bred?).
 

This is a very loaded question. First, I don't think anyone knows anything about the genetics of passing on poor head confirmation. It's not a simple "1 in 4" type of answer. Depends on many factors like: Is it dominant or recessive? Who knows. Is it sex linked? Who knows. The field of genetics is very complicated and I'm no pro. I can at least tell you anecdotally that I know of one breeder that I do not consider reputable (for lots of reasons, not just breeding dogs with poor confirmation) who has poor head shape pop up (dogs with very dachshund or dobie type snouts and ears far too long) repeatedly in his line. It certainly can be inherited. How it is inherited I couldn't pretend to predict.

As to what "reputable" is - the definition of that word varies widely in the real world.

Lastly, again if this is just a pet, not such a big deal. You didn't specify - will you spay the animal?

Jean

Excellent points and true. However, I feel a little differently about dog breeding than cattle breeding. If we don't like something about a heifer or steer, we can eat it

Jean

AH,COM-ON,HERE,, If the bitches head is that far from the standard, then it is considered a pet, and should not be used for breeding. There are a lot of nice breedable bitches out there, so why breed something of pet quality ?!?!?!

It doesn't impress me either that she honored at 2yrs of age, at 30 ft away. Most well bred hunting dogs will point at 8weeks of age. My Sadie was honoring at that age,,

It's a great question, but I don't have any personal experience from which to draw. Haven't had a pup turn out with a dobie muzzle, so have no basis to comment. The breeder I knew that did have that occur doesn't give me basis to comment either because I never saw those dogs as pups.