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Subject: Re: [working-gundog] epigenetics and the origins of pointing

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cwalt

MH
Posts:180

07/04/2007 7:59 AM
> I think we have both argued in the past that the natural point and the > trained > stand are distinct behaviors. > Could the distinction be the result of fundamental differences between > brain > development processes guided by epigenetic molecules working in concert > with the > genetic foundation and the environment and brain development (learning) > under > environmental influence only? Perhaps there is not enough known now in > any of the > relevant fields to answer these questions. I suspect this is the case. > jere ~~~~~~~~~ We do know that the stand results entirely from whoa training or voice interference with the development of normal pointing behavior. If the young dog is left alone to develop its pointing from bird contact without human interference the pointing intensity can mature at any time from a minute to a year or more. I have little data to support comparisons of this natural pointing development from generation to generation since whoa training is an uncontrollable and unpredictable interference with normal development. I don't know exactly how we could distinguish an epigenetic effect from a genetic effect with these dogs. If there are no differences that we can detect we have no hypothesis to test How do you suggest that we detect epigenetic effects? My argument is that we cannot now discriminate between genetic and epigenetic effects in pointing dogs. We do know that there is a pronounced tendency for dogs with a strong pointing instinct to produce offspring with that same instinct, eg, that the pointing behavior has a genetic basis. I can also affirm that with some breeds (German shorthairs and wirehairs) the pointing instinct can be retained without diminution in show stock and so it isn't necessarily linked to genes for coat and conformation. There are also a lot of data suggesting that field trial lines may have problems with pointing although this is probably linked to nose quality rather than the pointing instinct itself. We can take a pup from a litter from parents with a poor pointing instinct and train it to stand with the whoa command. We can also take a pup from a litter of parents with a strong pointing instinct and train it to stand with the whoa. There are initially subtle differences between these whoa trained pups when they first come in contact with bird scent but these soon disappear with continued whoa training. If we follow these dogs after their handlers stop with the whoa stuff the dogs will start pointing again after a year or so. Unfortunately the actual pointing that re-emerges is usually somewhat subdued and I cannot think of a way to link the strength of the pointing in whoa recovered dogs to the pointing instinct strength of their parents. This fogginess in the data is probably due to the fact that whoa trainers inspire and encourage other whoa trainers and so there is a human social component that confounds the little data that I can extract from my notebooks. Perhaps you need to find a more dedicated student of pointing dogs with a passion for documenting everything for a number of generations. My notes are too episodic to be entered into a database program and my memory cannot fill in what I didn't document. Cj

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