----- Original Message -----

From: Maud & Torsti

To: working-gundog@web.whc.net

Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 11:03 PM

Subject: Re: [working-gundog] Wise dogs and wise humans

I think that in modern times (the last 2000 - 4000 years perhaps) religion has made an unrestrained relation to animals difficult. In USA the native Indians call animals for their "brothers and sisters", while our church has always talked about "animals without a soul" and hence given them little or no value. This of course has hampered a neutral research on animals until today. It is still hampering our view on animals and perhaps still a number of human generations have to pass before we in the future can look at animals in a neutral way and thereby find entirely new characteristics in them, that we have not seen before since we have been blinded by prejudice. Who knows????

 

Anyway the way Cj described the coexistence between man and dog is very interesting, if not breaking new ground, at least on the grassroot level. Therefore I would like to ask if Cj is willing to put these two messages below together in one way or another and Maud and me would produce illustrative photos and capture and publish the lot on our website, like we did with the stuff about a birddogs point? Is this possible? 

 

Cj wrote:

>>>>The intellectual advantage that dogs have over wolves is their readiness
to seek help from a human pack member, something that wolves cannot do. 
My dogs have trained me to respond to their requests in a relatively
complete fashion, they have trained me to open the door when they want
to go out and to take them for a ride when they want to see the
countryside.  They were exceptionally efficient in training me to hunt
properly and to take them hunting when they wanted to go.  Wolves don't
solicit help with a problem whereas dogs show no hesitation in
demonstrating their needs and emotional state to a human.  Since dogs
can efficiently solicit help from a human they take advantage of human
intelligence to a greater degree than any other species.  I consider
that ability to be part of a dog's intelligence.

I find that many of my dogs' behaviors are asking for something, the
trick is learning what they need help with.  I encounter many dog
handlers that are only too willing to try to teach or direct a dog in
how to hunt when the dogs need no help.  I run into babblers all the
time and, quite interestingly, they are ready to direct the dog in the
field but haven't a clue when the dog actually requests their help. 
Many handlers cannot shut up during a field search but when the dog is
retrieving blind it will often look to the handler to solicit guidance
and the handler stands mute... what a peculiar dichotomy.  After
training and working with a few retrievers the trainer often learns to
use body language and subtle signals to guide the dog under difficult
retrieving conditions.  Eventually the 'hup' or 'sit' command takes on a
new meaning, it says "pay attention to me" and the dog comes to expect a
human signal of some sort after receiving such a command. Dog body
language can be very subtle as can human body language, you tell your
dog far more than you know.

The classic, and most easily diagnosed dog question is seen in the water
retrieve in versatile dog tests, it is the solicitation of help, the dog
swims out and suddenly turns and looks to the handler, the dog is
waiting for the handler to throw a stone to direct it towards the bird.
The naive trainer will, more often than not, start searching for
something to throw for the dog, this is a consequence of training of the
handler by the dog. With more sophistication on the part of dog and
handler you can answer the dog's question by the orientation of your
face or the direction of your gaze.  Can dogs engage in complex
behaviors?... when a dog approaches and throws a stick or a ball at your
feet it is asking you to play with it, a relatively complex request
involving both solicitation and anticipation linked to a specific object.

My dogs have a half dozen or so barks or sounds that have specific
meanings and an extensive repertoire of body language to engage my
attention.  In this I found that mallard ducks and black ducks are more
vocally communicative than dogs in that they have a richer sound
vocabulary of calls whereas the dogs have a more extensive body language
vocabulary.  Most forms of contact that I have with my dogs are
instances in which the dogs want or need something from me, of course
the converse is also true, when I have an interaction with one of my
dogs usually I want something as well.  A lot of this kind of behavior
is termed allelomimetic, a fancy word that essentially means they're
copying the body language of their pack mates.  Yes, dogs learn a lot of
behaviors from other dogs since they are preprogrammed for learning body
language.  It is also important for the trainer to understand that dogs
learn a lot of their body language signals from humans, a form of
communication that is particularly difficult to diagnose.  Dogs can, and
do think about things that interest them and are far more than simple
response reaction boxes.  You can spend your whole life reading dogs and
still encounter new language from both old and new dogs.>>>

 

and:

>>>We have evidence that man and dog have been together for perhaps 35,000
years and in that time there has been some evidence of coevolution.  We
have dogs that almost seem to instinctively understand human emotional
states and human body language but even more interesting is the behavior
of humans that seems to instinctively adapt to dog body language.  It is
almost automatic for humans to encourage a dog to approach by squatting
down and holding out the hands.  This behavior is naturally a releaser
for the approach of an uncertain dog.  Why does spreading out the arms
encourage a dog to come to a human?  We have many unlearned responses
and behaviors that trigger innate behaviors in the domestic dog that
seem to be automatic body language interactions understood by the dog. 
I can easily understand how a body language sensitive social animal such
as the dog can learn to respond to humans but how do humans
instinctively know so much about dog behavior?  Why do dogs "grin" at
humans and yet never display this signal to other dogs?  Why does the
heart rate and blood pressure of both dog and human fall when they are
in physical contact?  What is the reciprocal calming effect that both
man and dog experience when a man strokes a dog's back?  Dogs have been
selectively adapted to man but it also seems that man is selectively
adapted to dogs.

After examining my own emotional responses to dogs I find that I respond
to them in ways that don't occur to me when I encounter a wolf, fox or
coyote.  Part of this difference is learned but part of it is innate. 
As far as I can tell humans can easily learn to read a dog but it is a
far more difficult task to learn to read a wolf or coyote.

When it comes to sniffing, that is scent investigation by a dog, dogs
selectively determine what parts of another dog or person  are sniffed. 
These body areas are different for mature dogs and puppies and they are
equally different for adult humans and children.  Why does a dog
instantly recognize a juvenile human and sniff different body areas than
it does with an adult human?  With children dogs sniff the face and head
but with adults they sniff the same body areas that they do with other
mature dogs, a social distinction made by no other animal species.  We
are interesting paired species.>>>>

Torsti

 

Borta Med Vindens Kennel
www.rospigan.net

 

"Merciful God the Almighty!
Deprive me  my common sense
so that I can at least to some extent
accomplish my commitments as a
citizen of the European Union!."