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Subject: [working-gundog] remote commands ?
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cwaltUser is Offline

MH
MH
Posts:180


09/14/2008 11:53 AM  
Still waiting for Jere to discuss the claims of "over the hill" control of dogs. Interesting but need more info. Cj
jmurrUser is Offline

MH
MH
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09/14/2008 4:45 PM  
> Still waiting for Jere to discuss the claims of "over the hill" control > of dogs. Interesting but need more info. > Cj > I think I already answered your prior questions to the best of my current ability. I suspect the dog keeps track of the human, in these cases, by sound (most likely) and/or touch (pads of feet and/or hairs between detecting vibrations of the surface of the earth caused by human walking - got to consult w/ my geologist friend re this possibility). The behavior is the result of inadvertant training of a very cooperative dog etc. Jere
mcottonUser is Offline

MH
MH
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09/14/2008 11:29 PM  
Over the hill. That means old and getting past it, doesn't it? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cj" To: Sent: Monday, September 15, 2008 5:40 AM Subject: [working-gundog] remote commands ? > Still waiting for Jere to discuss the claims of "over the hill" control > of dogs. Interesting but need more info. > Cj
jmurrUser is Offline

MH
MH
Posts:158


09/15/2008 12:30 AM  
Yes. One of the Beauties of English as an approximation to a language of communication is that words and phases can mean several things. this makes talking past one another so much easier and we don't have to resort to lying ("The truth is soooo limiting!") In this context "over the hill" means 'out of sight.' Jere > Over the hill. That means old and getting past it, doesn't it? > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Cj" > To: > Sent: Monday, September 15, 2008 5:40 AM > Subject: [working-gundog] remote commands ? > > >> Still waiting for Jere to discuss the claims of "over the hill" control >> of dogs. Interesting but need more info. >> Cj >
rospiganUser is Offline

MH
MH
Posts:372


09/15/2008 12:37 AM  
Hmmmmmm... thats why I don't always catch up with what you are talking about =o)
 
/Maud, who miss my walking encyclopedia Torsti...
 
Borta Med Vindens Kennel
"Ask not what your dog can do for you.
Ask what you can do for your dog."
www.rospigan.net
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2008 8:18 AM
Subject: Re: [working-gundog] remote commands ?

Yes.  One of the Beauties of English as an approximation to a language of
communication is that words and phases can mean several things.  this makes talking
past one another so much easier and we don't have to resort to lying ("The truth is
soooo limiting!")

In this context "over the hill" means 'out of sight.'

Jere > Over the hill.  That means old and getting past it, doesn't it?
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cj" <cwalt@gwi.net>
> To: <working-gundog@web.whc.net>
> Sent: Monday, September 15, 2008 5:40 AM
> Subject: [working-gundog] remote commands ?
>
>
>> Still waiting for Jere to discuss the claims of "over the hill" control
>> of dogs.   Interesting but need more info.
>> Cj
>

mcottonUser is Offline

MH
MH
Posts:87


09/15/2008 12:46 AM  
I was just fooling with them Maude :-)
 
Marg
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2008 6:25 PM
Subject: Re: [working-gundog] remote commands ?

Hmmmmmm... thats why I don't always catch up with what you are talking about =o)
 
/Maud, who miss my walking encyclopedia Torsti...
 
Borta Med Vindens Kennel
"Ask not what your dog can do for you.
Ask what you can do for your dog."
www.rospigan.net
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2008 8:18 AM
Subject: Re: [working-gundog] remote commands ?

Yes.  One of the Beauties of English as an approximation to a language of
communication is that words and phases can mean several things.  this makes talking
past one another so much easier and we don't have to resort to lying ("The truth is
soooo limiting!")

In this context "over the hill" means 'out of sight.'

Jere > Over the hill.  That means old and getting past it, doesn't it?
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cj" <cwalt@gwi.net>
> To: <working-gundog@web.whc.net>
> Sent: Monday, September 15, 2008 5:40 AM
> Subject: [working-gundog] remote commands ?
>
>
>> Still waiting for Jere to discuss the claims of "over the hill" control
>> of dogs.   Interesting but need more info.
>> Cj
>

jmurrUser is Offline

MH
MH
Posts:158


09/15/2008 12:34 PM  
Marg, I KNEW that, but I was dead serious with every word of my comment. Jere > I was just fooling with them Maude :-) > > Marg
rospiganUser is Offline

MH
MH
Posts:372


09/18/2008 2:27 AM  
>>>>>I suspect the dog keeps track of the human, in these cases, by sound (most likely)
and/or touch (pads of feet and/or hairs between detecting vibrations of the surface
of the earth caused by human walking - got to consult w/ my geologist friend re
this possibility).

The behavior is the result of inadvertant training of a very cooperative dog etc.

Jere>>>>

I have been thinking about this subject also, in fact more or less every day when I go out to give the dog/s a run. Of course if a spaniel  consciously has to keep contact it is already too far away :-)))
 
Since we mostly walk partly in forest during our daily exercises the setter will use the wind and make a circle to find me.  I have also many times in the past seen how Foxy used ground scent to find Maud should she loose contact with her. Foxy often lost contact in forest, she was far too wide ranging for that kind of hunting. Maybe she had early learned how to find us as fast as possible.
 
Briz do not loose me that often and should she do it in forest I will not know if she dips her nose to the ground to find my track. However if there is no wind I can not tell if she has any options to ground scent. I use to walk rather silently, a habit from the past when I used to stalk roe deer, so I do not believe she can hear me very often.
 
I do not know for sure but I believe that when you walk in forest in a condition when there is no wind at all, you will leave a faint "cloud" of scent particles floating in the air so a birddog with its fantastic nose actually will have a 3-dimensional hallway of scent to follow. We must never underestimate a dogs olfactory capability.
 
It is for example believed that a blind dog can avoid obstacles and walls at home by the scent they emit.........and do it so well so you hardly will notice that we have a blind dog here.
 
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens Kennel
"Ask not what your dog can do for you.
Ask what you can do for your dog."
www.rospigan.net
jmurrUser is Offline

MH
MH
Posts:158


09/18/2008 11:56 PM  
Torsti, When hunting in the mountains - say for the grouse we call ptarmigan in N America; pretty much open country with low scattered cover possibly, but not flat... Do the setters stay within sight always? or do they go out of sight down into depressions or over hills or ridges some of the time? Do they generally work to the front and into the wind with excursions to either side? And if they do disappear from view, do they frequently reappear coming from behind (downwind or on the ground scent trail; or do they generally seem to be able to know where you are going and reappear again to the front (more or less even if off to one side or the other)? At this juncture, I am more interested in how the dog keeps contact with the moving hunter even when the dog goes out of sight. This is a somewhat different subject than the one on out of sight commands. This behavior, I would suspect, might require some higher level "thinking" than dogs may generally be thought capable of. Jere ... > > I have been thinking about this subject also, in fact more or less every day when I > go out to give the dog/s a run. Of course if a spaniel consciously has to keep > contact it is already too far away :-))) > > Since we mostly walk partly in forest during our daily exercises the setter will > use the wind and make a circle to find me. I have also many times in the past seen > how Foxy used ground scent to find Maud should she loose contact with her. Foxy > often lost contact in forest, she was far too wide ranging for that kind of > hunting. Maybe she had early learned how to find us as fast as possible. > > Briz do not loose me that often and should she do it in forest I will not know if > she dips her nose to the ground to find my track. However if there is no wind I can > not tell if she has any options to ground scent. I use to walk rather silently, a > habit from the past when I used to stalk roe deer, so I do not believe she can hear > me very often. > > I do not know for sure but I believe that when you walk in forest in a condition > when there is no wind at all, you will leave a faint "cloud" of scent particles > floating in the air so a birddog with its fantastic nose actually will have a > 3-dimensional hallway of scent to follow. We must never underestimate a dogs > olfactory capability. > > It is for example believed that a blind dog can avoid obstacles and walls at home > by the scent they emit.........and do it so well so you hardly will notice that we > have a blind dog here. > > Torsti > Borta Med Vindens Kennel > "Ask not what your dog can do for you. > Ask what you can do for your dog." > www.rospigan.net
rospiganUser is Offline

MH
MH
Posts:372


09/19/2008 2:09 PM  
Tonight I got my first deer for this autumn and it blew away some of the restlessness I had brought home from work. It was nothing that we use to decorate the x-mas tree with but it fits well into the freezer.
 
Jere wrote:
>>>Torsti,  When hunting in the mountains - say for the grouse we call ptarmigan in N
America; pretty much open country with low scattered cover possibly, but not
flat... Do the setters stay within sight always?  or do they go out of sight down
into depressions or over hills or ridges some of the time?  Do they generally work
to the front and into the wind with excursions to either side?  And if they do
disappear from view, do they frequently reappear coming from behind (downwind or on
the ground scent trail; or do they generally seem to be able to know where you are
going and reappear again to the front (more or less even if off to one side or the
other)?>>>
Most of us think that the ptarmigan (lagopus mutus) is too difficult to consciously search and shoot over pointing dogs. They run nervously here and there among the rocks when disturbed and if they flush they will be at the edge of the range of a shotgun. It is said that hard going spaniels are the right medicine, the birds will never have time to fool around with the dog. Instead the ptarmigan is killed in wintertime by hunters on skis by scouting the snow covered hillsides with field glasses and shooting the bird with a small calibre (22LR for ex.) rifle at a distance that is beyond their escape distance.
 
Hence the willow grouse (lagopus lagopus) is the main target in the mountains for our birddogs and hence their habitat is where we hunt them. They can when the weather is very warm be found high up in the ptarmigan habitat but rarely in completely sterile areas, there has to be patches of low ground vegetation to feed from and hide in.
 
The smart dogs, provided that they are given enough of experience, will learn to avoid the sterile areas but adjust their search pattern so they cover the promising patches of vegetation. If you as a handler use the wind wisely and walk slowly enough the dog should never came up from your back. If it does you have walked too fast. Some dogs, like the late Foxy and today Briz will, if pushed too hard forward by you, still cast to your backside and search the ground you have left behind by walking too fast.
 
In other words they have control over the terrain and they want to be careful not to leave any "white" areas on the map. Here the indipendence of bold dogs is an advantage. They are bold enough to "correct" you when you have failed :-))
 
If you do your part well they will almost always work in front of you and they have a search pattern that is predictable. They will disappear now beyond ridges and into depressions and other formations in the terrain but since they have a sense of direction and position they have a plan about where and when to turn back. If you know your dogs you will know where and when they will come within sight again. A field trial judge will be pleased and smile if you can say where your dog disappeared and where you think it will be seen again. If the dog comes into sight where you predicted there will be an extra point in the bag - it means that the dog and you know each other. If it does not return within reasonable time it probably has found something and since you know the dog you will also know, at least approximately, where to search for it. The terrain is what it is and sometimes you have to move in a way that is not favourable considering the wind direction. Then of course the dog try to do the best out of the situation and show up from both here and there.
 
Most of us use these orange coloured coats on our dogs in order to find them easier. Also beeper collars and tracking collars are widely used. The beeper collar is questioned  by many for different reasons. In trials no collars are allowed, I believe,  except a colour coded collar should two dogs in a pair be so very similar so they are difficult to separate for the judge.  
 
On the field I have seen extreme remote handling of birddogs when the handlers are trying to direct the dog to search in a mathematically correct pattern, on the limit to ridiculous handling. Good or bad, I don't know and I don't care, they can do what they want but they must know that scent conditions vary from day to day and only the dog can sense the condition for the day or hour. In the mountains the young dog is best left to learn its own way unless it runs totally wild. If you have a good contact with the dog you only have to turn your back to it to direct it into a new direction.
 
Then I have to ad something to my last post. When I went/go out with the late Foxy and Springer or today with Briz on the daily fitness training only, they knew that nothing of importance would happen and that it was not a hunting trip. They behaved/behave completely differently and ran/run for their own pleasure only, stopping and sniffing here and there, followed a track or scent out of sight and could stay away for a rather long time (a long time is 5 - 10 minutes for me). Not Springer of course, she stayed close but still could go farther than when hunting normally. When on her own particularly the somewhat broadminded Foxy lost me now and then, and then came running from an unexpected direction, out of breath but happy to find me again. This rarely happened when training or hunting so my conclusion is that if you are with them - then they are with you.........whatever it means :-)))
 
Then when they knew that it was about field training or hunting for real they transformed  into more or less obedient gundogs. They knew that the demands were tied to the situation. Given a chance mature, experienced gundogs can be very flexible and pleasant and easy.
 
>>>At this juncture, I am more interested in how the dog keeps contact with the moving
hunter even when the dog goes out of sight.  This is a somewhat different subject
than the one on out of sight commands.  This behaviour, I would suspect, might
require some higher level "thinking" than dogs may generally be thought capable of.>>>
 
Now and then dogs and cats have been moved hundreds of kilometres from home and they have come back sooner or later by their own navigational skills. They probably have something that we do not understand yet.
 
Harehounds and elkhounds often move really far from the handler. Some of them learn to return by back-tracking their own tracks. Some of them will find a road and follow it in the right direction. In Sweden it is not very uncommon to see those dogs trotting on the roadside respecting the traffic like law-obedient joggers. Well, that's another story, actually.
 
Anyway, if a dog really wants to come back to its owner it has a lot of power and skill to do it. Now and then even they fail like a setter that was lost recently for almost a week. I can not check the details now since the website telling the story seems to be down for the moment, 
 
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens Kennel
"Ask not what your dog can do for you.
Ask what you can do for your dog."
www.rospigan.net
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