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cwalt
MH
Posts:180
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| 09/09/2008 10:02 AM |
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| Zak, one of my pointing Labs trotted out last night and nailed a
porcupine right in the driveway. Spent the entire night pulling quills
out of his mouth, tongue and muzzle. Zak didn't enjoy all the attention
and so I'm shredded, bitten and bloody. This morning Zak seems none the
worse for wear after the removal of 180+ quills.
Cj |
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rospigan
MH
Posts:372
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| 09/09/2008 11:36 AM |
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It could have been worse. It could have first taken
a skunk, THEN the orcupine.
Greetings from
Torsti on a the ship via a phone and
Maud
Borta Med Vindens Kennel "Ask not what your dog can do for you. Ask
what you can do for your dog." www.rospigan.net
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 5:48
PM
Subject: [working-gundog] Zak
Zak, one of my pointing Labs trotted out last night and nailed
a
porcupine right in the driveway. Spent the entire night pulling
quills
out of his mouth, tongue and muzzle. Zak didn't enjoy all the
attention
and so I'm shredded, bitten and bloody. This morning Zak
seems none the
worse for wear after the removal of 180+
quills.
Cj
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lameduck
SH
Posts:44
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| 09/09/2008 12:43 PM |
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| I have never had any experience up til now with porcupines, I have heard
though that if you cut the quil in two with sissors that they pull right
out. Do they?
Ron
> It could have been worse. It could have first taken a skunk, THEN the
> orcupine.
>
> Greetings from
> Torsti on a the ship via a phone and Maud
>
>
> Borta Med Vindens Kennel
> "Ask not what your dog can do for you.
> Ask what you can do for your dog."
> www.rospigan.net
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Cj
> To: working-gundog@web.whc.net
> Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 5:48 PM
> Subject: [working-gundog] Zak
>
>
> Zak, one of my pointing Labs trotted out last night and nailed a
> porcupine right in the driveway. Spent the entire night pulling quills
> out of his mouth, tongue and muzzle. Zak didn't enjoy all the attention
> and so I'm shredded, bitten and bloody. This morning Zak seems none the
> worse for wear after the removal of 180+ quills.
> Cj
>
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soniaskinner
MH
Posts:98
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| 09/09/2008 1:52 PM |
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> Zak, one of my pointing Labs trotted out last night and nailed a
> porcupine right in the driveway. Spent the entire night pulling quills
> out of his mouth, tongue and muzzle. Zak didn't enjoy all the attention
> and so I'm shredded, bitten and bloody. This morning Zak seems none the
> worse for wear after the removal of 180+ quills.
> Cj
What happened to the porcupine Poor Zak and poor you, sounds a very
uncomfortable business to remove all those quills.
Sonia
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mcotton
MH
Posts:87
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| 09/09/2008 1:58 PM |
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| Sounds like it was as bad for Cj
Marg
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sonia Skinner"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 7:21 AM
Subject: Re: [working-gundog] Zak
>
>> Zak, one of my pointing Labs trotted out last night and nailed a
>> porcupine right in the driveway. Spent the entire night pulling quills
>> out of his mouth, tongue and muzzle. Zak didn't enjoy all the attention
>> and so I'm shredded, bitten and bloody. This morning Zak seems none the
>> worse for wear after the removal of 180+ quills.
>> Cj
>
> What happened to the porcupine Poor Zak and poor you, sounds a very
> uncomfortable business to remove all those quills.
>
> Sonia
>
> |
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cwalt
MH
Posts:180
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| 09/09/2008 2:10 PM |
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| lameduck@lameduck.com wrote:
> I have never had any experience up til now with porcupines, I have heard
> though that if you cut the quil in two with sissors that they pull right
> out. Do they?
>
> Ron
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We have a goodly population of porcupines around here so we get a fair
amount of practice with quills. You don't have to cut them, you just
grasp them with a hemostat or needle nose pliers and yank them out with
a straight pull. The hard part is that they're barbed and hurt the dog
coming out. As soon as the hemostat touches a quill the dog jerks,
twists or snaps at you. The quills aren't very large, perhaps the size
of sewing needles so getting a grip on a quill is a matter of speed,
accuracy and 90% luck. As each quill is removed the dog becomes more
agitated and tears at you with paws, claws and teeth. By the time
you've pulled a hundred you and the dog are soaked in blood, a lot of it
yours, and the dog is hyper and struggling. Holding on to a 60 lb black
Labrador and trying to pull black quills from inside a black mouth is an
exhausting and frustrating exercise. When the quills are packed inside
the dog's nostrils and between its lips and gums and in the roof of its
mouth you really start to dislike porcupines. Vets don't fool around
this way, they anesthetize the dog, pull the quills and charge you $250
or more during office hours. The problem is that the dog can't wait
and getting a vet at midnight is an extremely expensive and difficult
proposition in this area.
The reason that the dog can't wait is that with every muscular movement
the barbed quills are drawn deeper into muscles and other tissues. In
six or eight hours you can find very few of the quills and you know that
they will keep on traveling until they enter the brain, spinal cord or
other internal organs and kill the dog. Many dogs die from quills six
or more months after an encounter with a porcupine so you have to get
them quickly and get all of them or the dog has a poor prognosis. This
isn't a one time event that teaches the dog anything, the quills don't
hurt going in, they only hurt coming out so the dog is perfectly willing
to grab the next porcupine it meets. I've dequilled a dozen of my own
dogs over the years but I'm the "dog man" in the neighborhood so I get
four or five dogs a year to dequill in evenings, in daytimes I refer the
dogs to vets but at night I can't wait. Porcupines are often nocturnal
so dogs get into trouble at inconvenient times. Wait until you get a
stark raving mad 100 lb Rottweiler with a mouthful of quills (had one
three years ago, took 6 hours and a pint of blood).
Cj |
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cwalt
MH
Posts:180
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| 09/09/2008 2:12 PM |
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| Sonia Skinner wrote:
> What happened to the porcupine Poor Zak and poor you, sounds a very
> uncomfortable business to remove all those quills.
>
> Sonia
>
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I assume it waddled off after wrecking the dog, I never saw it. The dog
came bursting into the house doing flips and snapping and clawing.
Cj
>
>
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cwalt
MH
Posts:180
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| 09/09/2008 2:21 PM |
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| Margaret Cotton wrote:
> Sounds like it was as bad for Cj
>
> Marg
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Well, I've got a lacerated left arm and hand bandaged up this morning.
I'll be back in shape by tomorrow since I heal fast. Zak is in great
shape and had a good breakfast this morning.
Cj |
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lameduck
SH
Posts:44
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| 09/09/2008 10:49 PM |
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| I swear that I have heard that if you cut the quill that the barbs turn
loose.
Ron
> lameduck@lameduck.com wrote:
>> I have never had any experience up til now with porcupines, I have heard
>> though that if you cut the quil in two with sissors that they pull right
>> out. Do they?
>>
>> Ron
>>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> We have a goodly population of porcupines around here so we get a fair
> amount of practice with quills. You don't have to cut them, you just
> grasp them with a hemostat or needle nose pliers and yank them out with
> a straight pull. The hard part is that they're barbed and hurt the dog
> coming out. As soon as the hemostat touches a quill the dog jerks,
> twists or snaps at you. The quills aren't very large, perhaps the size
> of sewing needles so getting a grip on a quill is a matter of speed,
> accuracy and 90% luck. As each quill is removed the dog becomes more
> agitated and tears at you with paws, claws and teeth. By the time
> you've pulled a hundred you and the dog are soaked in blood, a lot of it
> yours, and the dog is hyper and struggling. Holding on to a 60 lb black
> Labrador and trying to pull black quills from inside a black mouth is an
> exhausting and frustrating exercise. When the quills are packed inside
> the dog's nostrils and between its lips and gums and in the roof of its
> mouth you really start to dislike porcupines. Vets don't fool around
> this way, they anesthetize the dog, pull the quills and charge you $250
> or more during office hours. The problem is that the dog can't wait
> and getting a vet at midnight is an extremely expensive and difficult
> proposition in this area.
>
> The reason that the dog can't wait is that with every muscular movement
> the barbed quills are drawn deeper into muscles and other tissues. In
> six or eight hours you can find very few of the quills and you know that
> they will keep on traveling until they enter the brain, spinal cord or
> other internal organs and kill the dog. Many dogs die from quills six
> or more months after an encounter with a porcupine so you have to get
> them quickly and get all of them or the dog has a poor prognosis. This
> isn't a one time event that teaches the dog anything, the quills don't
> hurt going in, they only hurt coming out so the dog is perfectly willing
> to grab the next porcupine it meets. I've dequilled a dozen of my own
> dogs over the years but I'm the "dog man" in the neighborhood so I get
> four or five dogs a year to dequill in evenings, in daytimes I refer the
> dogs to vets but at night I can't wait. Porcupines are often nocturnal
> so dogs get into trouble at inconvenient times. Wait until you get a
> stark raving mad 100 lb Rottweiler with a mouthful of quills (had one
> three years ago, took 6 hours and a pint of blood).
> Cj
>
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cwalt
MH
Posts:180
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| 09/10/2008 5:04 AM |
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| lameduck@lameduck.com wrote:
> I swear that I have heard that if you cut the quill that the barbs turn
> loose.
>
> Ron
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It is true that porcupine quills are hollow and somewhat inflated but
the barbs are on the sharp and rigid extreme outer end of the quill.
This might be the case for some quills but the broken and flattened
quills seem to require just as much force for extraction as do the whole
quills. I'm not certain that this is the case for all quills since
they're variable between species. The quills of the African black
porcupine are hollow, extremely rigid
and about 30 cm long. You could certainly wrap a handle around them
and drive them through a human skull like an ice pick. African blacks
can kill lions by the simple expedient of backing into them at a dead
run. These quills have barbs further down the point and deflating the
quill would narrow the diameter at the barb.
Cj
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stuwest
JH
Posts:39
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| 09/10/2008 8:39 AM |
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| i've heard it 5x that it works and 1x that it's fruitless.
anybody tried it?
I've also heard that soaking the quills with a solution of ???
vinegar??? also softens them.
Stu, Dawn & Hunter West
Founder, Pointing Labradors
"Letting Labs Point the Way!"
Alma Bottom Pointing Labradors
N4758 350th Street, Elmwood, WI 54740
(715) 639-3900 h&w (715)684-9892 cell
StuWest@AlmaBottom.com www.AlmaBottom.com
lameduck@lameduck.com wrote:
> I swear that I have heard that if you cut the quill that the barbs turn
> loose.
>
> Ron
>
>
>> lameduck@lameduck.com wrote:
>>
>>> I have never had any experience up til now with porcupines, I have heard
>>> though that if you cut the quil in two with sissors that they pull right
>>> out. Do they?
>>>
>>> Ron
>>>
>>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> We have a goodly population of porcupines around here so we get a fair
>> amount of practice with quills. You don't have to cut them, you just
>> grasp them with a hemostat or needle nose pliers and yank them out with
>> a straight pull. The hard part is that they're barbed and hurt the dog
>> coming out. As soon as the hemostat touches a quill the dog jerks,
>> twists or snaps at you. The quills aren't very large, perhaps the size
>> of sewing needles so getting a grip on a quill is a matter of speed,
>> accuracy and 90% luck. As each quill is removed the dog becomes more
>> agitated and tears at you with paws, claws and teeth. By the time
>> you've pulled a hundred you and the dog are soaked in blood, a lot of it
>> yours, and the dog is hyper and struggling. Holding on to a 60 lb black
>> Labrador and trying to pull black quills from inside a black mouth is an
>> exhausting and frustrating exercise. When the quills are packed inside
>> the dog's nostrils and between its lips and gums and in the roof of its
>> mouth you really start to dislike porcupines. Vets don't fool around
>> this way, they anesthetize the dog, pull the quills and charge you $250
>> or more during office hours. The problem is that the dog can't wait
>> and getting a vet at midnight is an extremely expensive and difficult
>> proposition in this area.
>>
>> The reason that the dog can't wait is that with every muscular movement
>> the barbed quills are drawn deeper into muscles and other tissues. In
>> six or eight hours you can find very few of the quills and you know that
>> they will keep on traveling until they enter the brain, spinal cord or
>> other internal organs and kill the dog. Many dogs die from quills six
>> or more months after an encounter with a porcupine so you have to get
>> them quickly and get all of them or the dog has a poor prognosis. This
>> isn't a one time event that teaches the dog anything, the quills don't
>> hurt going in, they only hurt coming out so the dog is perfectly willing
>> to grab the next porcupine it meets. I've dequilled a dozen of my own
>> dogs over the years but I'm the "dog man" in the neighborhood so I get
>> four or five dogs a year to dequill in evenings, in daytimes I refer the
>> dogs to vets but at night I can't wait. Porcupines are often nocturnal
>> so dogs get into trouble at inconvenient times. Wait until you get a
>> stark raving mad 100 lb Rottweiler with a mouthful of quills (had one
>> three years ago, took 6 hours and a pint of blood).
>> Cj
>>
>>
>
>
> |
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cwalt
MH
Posts:180
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| 09/10/2008 9:54 AM |
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| Stu West wrote:
> i've heard it 5x that it works and 1x that it's fruitless.
> anybody tried it?
>
> I've also heard that soaking the quills with a solution of ???
> vinegar??? also softens them.
>
> Stu, Dawn & Hunter West Founder, Pointing Labradors "Letting Labs
> Point the Way!"
> Alma Bottom Pointing Labradors
> N4758 350th Street, Elmwood, WI 54740
> (715) 639-3900 h&w (715)684-9892 cell StuWest@AlmaBottom.com
> www.AlmaBottom.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Anyone faced with a violently thrashing dog in pain isn't going to try
clipping quills or soaking them in vinegar. It's impossibly difficult
to even grasp a quill with a hemostat or pliers under these conditions.
The dog considers you as the source of the pain and the dog's attitude
is your first problem. The animal is hysterical and violent. First you
have to sit or lie on top of the dog to keep it in the same room with
you. While holding the animal down you have to hold the dog's head in
one position, with your other hand you pry open the dog's mouth and with
your third hand you wield the hemostat. Two or three very strong extra
hands could help a bit but when you're alone you use all three of your
hands and your elbows to manage a very difficult two hour operation.
Dog is, naturally, going to use its teeth to protect itself so you
almost always wind up bleeding a bit yourself. I do wish I had access
to an anesthetic at times, vets have it easy.
Cj |
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jmurr
MH
Posts:158
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| 09/10/2008 12:40 PM |
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| The solution is vinegar and baking soda (in the correct proportions that would be
oxygen dihydride - commonly called water). I doubt that works.
I'm with Clem on this. Gotta just pull 'em out unless you can push 'em through and
then pull. It hurts a lot. Stick yourself at the next opportunity. One could do
an experiment with a spring scale attached to the hemostate if one had a dog full
of quills.
We had one dog here that really got into a quill pig. Sandy and I spent a whole
evening removing in excess of 500 quills from her mouth and head. Some were broken
and seemed to require the same force to remove as the intact ones. A few years
later the dog developed wierd neurological symptoms and when she could no longer
stand up long enough to eat we put her down.
Jere
> i've heard it 5x that it works and 1x that it's fruitless.
> anybody tried it?
>
> I've also heard that soaking the quills with a solution of ???
> vinegar??? also softens them.
>
> Stu, Dawn & Hunter West
> Founder, Pointing Labradors
> "Letting Labs Point the Way!"
> Alma Bottom Pointing Labradors
> N4758 350th Street, Elmwood, WI 54740
> (715) 639-3900 h&w (715)684-9892 cell
> StuWest@AlmaBottom.com www.AlmaBottom.com
>
>
>
>
> lameduck@lameduck.com wrote:
>> I swear that I have heard that if you cut the quill that the barbs turn
>> loose.
>>
>> Ron
>>
>>
>>> lameduck@lameduck.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have never had any experience up til now with porcupines, I have heard
>>>> though that if you cut the quil in two with sissors that they pull right
>>>> out. Do they?
>>>>
>>>> Ron
>>>>
>>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> We have a goodly population of porcupines around here so we get a fair
>>> amount of practice with quills. You don't have to cut them, you just
>>> grasp them with a hemostat or needle nose pliers and yank them out with
>>> a straight pull. The hard part is that they're barbed and hurt the dog
>>> coming out. As soon as the hemostat touches a quill the dog jerks,
>>> twists or snaps at you. The quills aren't very large, perhaps the size
>>> of sewing needles so getting a grip on a quill is a matter of speed,
>>> accuracy and 90% luck. As each quill is removed the dog becomes more
>>> agitated and tears at you with paws, claws and teeth. By the time
>>> you've pulled a hundred you and the dog are soaked in blood, a lot of it
>>> yours, and the dog is hyper and struggling. Holding on to a 60 lb black
>>> Labrador and trying to pull black quills from inside a black mouth is an
>>> exhausting and frustrating exercise. When the quills are packed inside
>>> the dog's nostrils and between its lips and gums and in the roof of its
>>> mouth you really start to dislike porcupines. Vets don't fool around
>>> this way, they anesthetize the dog, pull the quills and charge you $250
>>> or more during office hours. The problem is that the dog can't wait
>>> and getting a vet at midnight is an extremely expensive and difficult
>>> proposition in this area.
>>>
>>> The reason that the dog can't wait is that with every muscular movement
>>> the barbed quills are drawn deeper into muscles and other tissues. In
>>> six or eight hours you can find very few of the quills and you know that
>>> they will keep on traveling until they enter the brain, spinal cord or
>>> other internal organs and kill the dog. Many dogs die from quills six
>>> or more months after an encounter with a porcupine so you have to get
>>> them quickly and get all of them or the dog has a poor prognosis. This
>>> isn't a one time event that teaches the dog anything, the quills don't
>>> hurt going in, they only hurt coming out so the dog is perfectly willing
>>> to grab the next porcupine it meets. I've dequilled a dozen of my own
>>> dogs over the years but I'm the "dog man" in the neighborhood so I get
>>> four or five dogs a year to dequill in evenings, in daytimes I refer the
>>> dogs to vets but at night I can't wait. Porcupines are often nocturnal
>>> so dogs get into trouble at inconvenient times. Wait until you get a
>>> stark raving mad 100 lb Rottweiler with a mouthful of quills (had one
>>> three years ago, took 6 hours and a pint of blood).
>>> Cj
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
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soniaskinner
MH
Posts:98
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| 09/10/2008 3:50 PM |
|
|
> almost always wind up bleeding a bit yourself. I do wish I had access
> to an anesthetic at times, vets have it easy.
> Cj
I don't suppose it will happen again, but you could get some sedative pills
from the vet to keep just in case! They may take ten minutes or so to take
effect, but after that it would be easier to handle him! Or some Valium per
rectum!
Sonia
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cwalt
MH
Posts:180
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| 09/11/2008 6:14 AM |
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| Sonia Skinner wrote:
>> almost always wind up bleeding a bit yourself. I do wish I had access
>> to an anesthetic at times, vets have it easy.
>> Cj
>>
>
> I don't suppose it will happen again, but you could get some sedative pills
> from the vet to keep just in case! They may take ten minutes or so to take
> effect, but after that it would be easier to handle him! Or some Valium per
> rectum!
>
> Sonia
>
>
>
>
I don't think I could get pills into most quilled dogs but the rectal
Valium might work, will talk to my vet about it.
Cj |
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