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cwalt
MH
Posts:180
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| 09/04/2008 9:09 AM |
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| Most gun dogs are 'play trained' with positive methods. There is
absolutely nothing wrong with this and a majority of hunters and
trialers are quite satisfied with the results of positive induction of
retrieving behavior. There are, however, many situations in which the
trainer may insist on performance standards for retrieving such as might
be encountered in retriever trials. Some handlers are unable to be
emotionally objective about retrieving and their body language adversely
affects the retrieve. In these latter situations it is necessary to
force train the retrieve. The concept of force must first be
established so we understand exactly what kind of force we are using.
Ethologists identify some commands as releasers. A releaser is a signal
to the dog that it can do what it wants to do. For most dogs retrieving
is something they want to do (unless they're being trained to do it) and
so 'fetch' means "you can go get it". For the positive trainer a
releaser is quite satisfactory since their dogs have been conditioned to
accept the releaser as permission to do something they want to do. When
a dog that accepts releasers decides it doesn't want to go get
something there's apt to be a big problem, the trainer thinks that
'fetch' is a command , the dog knows that fetch is the same as 'OK', it
means "you can go get it". The dog knows that 'fetch' isn't a command,
it's just permission to do something. Now the confused trainer tries to
correct the dog but all that does is confuse the dog because it did not
disobey a command. Retrieving becomes a chaotic mess because the owner
thinks 'fetch' is a command and the dog has been taught that 'fetch' is
permission to do something if it wants to do it.
The function of force training is to teach the dog that 'fetch' is a
command and not simply a releaser. This kind of training in a sense
invites the dog to refuse and then corrects the refusal; it's the only
way to get the point across to the dog. Force does not imply the
imposition of pain, it's the trainer's force of will that is the force
we're discussing. Force is the trainer's willingness to correct each
and every error by the dog, force is simply insistence in its simplest
form. For most commands the trainer's insistence on obedience gets the
message to the dog: you must do this or else. The or else is the
correction, the trainer's force of will. For the dog that refuses to
'fetch it' the first level of force is to grasp the dog's collar and tow
(drag) it out to the dummy, then stick the dummy in the dog's mouth with
a 'fetch' command followed by a tow back to the site of refusal, a
'give' command and then praise. For many dogs this will demonstrate the
trainer's force of will. In all situations, from the simple to the
complex, force is simply insistence that the dog obey the command.
With active refusal and obstinacy a stronger form of force is required
and both the toe loop method and the ear pinch method are used to teach
the dog that 'fetch' means that the dog must take the object in its
mouth and hold it until it receives the 'give' command. The methods are
graded, the toe loop imposes discomfort as a form of forcing, the ear
pinch uses pain to impose the force. Now there are many levels of
insistence between the take the dog to the dummy method and the ear
pinch method. Many American versatile dog trainer start with maximum
insistence, the pain of the ear pinch as a stimulus for taking the dummy
into the mouth and holding it. The ear pinch has many advantages, it is
very quick when used properly, disadvantages are that it takes a lot of
work if the ear pinch is used improperly. There are many pitfalls in
using a maximum stimulus and it is not a method for the uninitiated to
attempt. If any of you are dissatisfied with the releaser (you _can_ go
get it) and want to force train (you _will_ go get it) we can discuss
beginning, intermediate and/or ultimate forcing methods.
Cj |
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soniaskinner
MH
Posts:98
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| 09/04/2008 12:18 PM |
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Force fetching cannot be used on a dog then who is so keen to retrieve that
he used to "run in"? Had end of term test last night, Drift was very
steady, very keen to retrieve, marked well, did his blind well, heel work
perfect but the wretch still jinxed at last minute and wouldn't give me the
retrieve; I did get it from him eventually, but lots of play took place on
his part first! (I had a brandy and ginger beforehand and was very relaxed)!
How can I force fetch that!
Sonia
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cwalt
MH
Posts:180
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| 09/04/2008 12:43 PM |
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| Sonia Skinner wrote:
> Force fetching cannot be used on a dog then who is so keen to retrieve that
> he used to "run in"? Had end of term test last night, Drift was very
> steady, very keen to retrieve, marked well, did his blind well, heel work
> perfect but the wretch still jinxed at last minute and wouldn't give me the
> retrieve; I did get it from him eventually, but lots of play took place on
> his part first! (I had a brandy and ginger beforehand and was very relaxed)!
>
> How can I force fetch that!
>
> Sonia
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
The easiest method of forcing is habituation. Sit the dog next to you,
hold the dummy in front of the dog. Command the dog to 'fetch' or
whatever command you would use to send the dog for a retrieve such as
the dog's name. When dog takes the dummy stroke his neck and give the
release command such as 'out' or 'give'. Take dummy in your hand, hold
it in front of the dog, command dog to fetch. I do this sitting and
watching the television. I may do this 150 times at a session each
evening. The objective is to make taking the dummy at the command and
releasing it at the command reflexive actions that the dog does without
thinking about it. I have spent as much as two weeks habituating a dog
to 'fetch' by this method. It is boring but the repetition fixes the
two responses in the dog's mind as reflexive actions. Use no praise in
these habituation exercises except for your hand contact.
Part of the habituation routine is accepting that every command must be
followed by another command or a releaser. I use OK as a releaser, that
means no more commands, do whatever you want. You can never say 'fetch'
without following it by a 'give' releaser, you must insist by repetition
that the dog respond to the two commands in sequence This rule keeps
you from making any serious errors in your training. Remember that the
easier it is to habituate the dog the easier it will be for the dog to
forget. My best retrieving versatiles have required the most habituation.
Cj
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jmurr
MH
Posts:158
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| 09/04/2008 1:46 PM |
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| There are some misconceptions displayed in the passages quoted below if applied to
general currently used "force" methods as practiced in the USA retriever training
circles.
There force is used in a general way as defined by behaviorists since Skinner (I
believe) as so-called "negative reinforcement" wherein a stimulus which the dog
perceives as aversive (could be simply a minor discomfort or quite painful) is
applied, a command is given (one the dog has already been taught to respond
properly to by positive reinforcement means) and the stimulus is maintained until
the instant the dog properly complies with the command. At this instant the
aversive stimulus is removed. There is no correction per se. Indeed, rather than
correction, there is REWARD - the removal of the unpleasantness which resulted from
the aversive stimulus. This process is one of "reinforcement" as oppossed to
"punishment" because it INCREASES the liklihood of a proper response to the command
in the future (punishment would DECREASE the liklihood of a response in the
future). Through this process the dog learns much more than proper response to the
command - it learns that it can ESCAPE from (conditions the "escape response")
adversity by proper compliance to known commands. The dogs generalize this concept
- they "learn to turn off pressure" and this is the desired result of all modern US
retriever training for high level performance.
So, there's more to it than a "must do," the important result is "when you do do
you escape pressure."
I believe, but can not yet cite references to peer reviewed literature, it has been
shown that "negative reinforcement" methods result in modified behavior which have
the greatest resiliency or resistance to fading over time of all reinforcement and
punishment techniques when used on animals responsive to them. Might not be true,
but they are VERY effective with dogs.
If the command is first given and FOLLOWED by the application of the aversive, the
time it takes the dog to respond to the command is shortened as the dog learns to
AVOID the aversive. The so-called "avoidance response." The dog learns to react
quickly.
Retriever pups headed for competition in this country are started on these concepts
at an early age - 'bout the time they first wear a choke chain collar and are
walked on lead. The choke chain collar may be preferred to otheres - plain web
collars etc - in this field because it affords warning of the impending aversive by
virtue of the sound made when the chain slids through the ring. This begins to
instill in the pups mind the concept of avoidance.
This stuff isn't new to this discussion group. Ron has talked about escape and
avoidance several times before in connection with FF for retrievers. I think he
has mentioned a very early book on the use of the e-collar in dog training - one
that is long out of print and scarce (I've never seen a copy for sale). I remember
the authors name as something like Tortola?
Similar "negative reinforcement" methods using the modern, variable intensity
e-collars, are slowly creeping into the training of birddogs in this country.
These are championed by Dobbs, Hickox, and, recently, Rafe. Personally, I feel
these folks are barking up the wrong tree - the want to achieve more control over
the bird dog than is necessary or desired. (IMO).
Jere
> ...
>
> The function of force training is to teach the dog that 'fetch' is a
> command and not simply a releaser. This kind of training in a sense
> invites the dog to refuse and then corrects the refusal; it's the only
> way to get the point across to the dog. ...
>
> With active refusal and obstinacy a stronger form of force is required
> and both the toe loop method and the ear pinch method are used to teach
> the dog that 'fetch' means that the dog must take the object in its
> mouth and hold it until it receives the 'give' command. ...
> Cj
>
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jmurr
MH
Posts:158
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| 09/04/2008 2:15 PM |
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| >
>
> Force fetching cannot be used on a dog then who is so keen to retrieve that
> he used to "run in"?
Quite the contrary, Sonia. US FT retrievers are so hot, "keen to retrieve that he
used to "run in", " as to be frowned upon by your countrymen visiting here and
watching our trials. I doubt there are many (if any now-a-days) that do not go
through a FF program AND a full blown force program including force to pile, force
to water, etc.
> Had end of term test last night, Drift was very
> steady, very keen to retrieve, marked well, did his blind well, heel work
> perfect but the wretch still jinxed at last minute and wouldn't give me the
> retrieve; I did get it from him eventually, but lots of play took place on
> his part first! (I had a brandy and ginger beforehand and was very relaxed)!
>
> How can I force fetch that!
I continue to have to wonder about the origin of Drift's "jinxing" at the end of
his delivery. I wish "we" had been able to "nip it in the bud" when it first
reared its ugly head. Regardless, you must now work on recall to cure this quickly,
IMO.
You should give the recall COMMAND the instant the dog lowers its head to pick up
the bird/bumper. That transfers control to YOU. Perhaps that will be sufficient,
but I am dubious.
You could "force" the recall. I believe I would go back to the beginning working on
recall on lead with a prong collar or choke chain collar. I'd spend as much time on
this and this only until it appeares that the pup is "perfect" and then spend
another week. Got to be careful of conditioning the avoidance response and not the
escape response though. Then I would consider transitioning to dog dragging lead
but wearing e-collar which I would use as the instrument of aversive at a very low
level - just high enough that the dog displays some indication of perception of the
stimulus. Then I would remove the lead. And finally, I'd find I no longer needed
the EC stim. In either case, you HAVE to build a foundation, almost a culture, of
the presence of the instrument of application of the aversive lest you end up with
a willful dog 'who' is "collar wise."
The result you want is an instant, reflexive turn and run in to you response when
you give the recall command - on lead or off, with and without distractions. It
might be possible to condition this in a much more natural way, depends on the dog,
but it would take much more time I'm sure. In the long run your best bet may be to
follow the tutelege of your local mentors on this issue.
Jere
>
> Sonia
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soniaskinner
MH
Posts:98
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| 09/05/2008 2:08 AM |
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I had been doing "habituation" fetch/give but not enough repetitions! I
thought about five was enough!
I understand about the importance of 'a releaser' from what you have
written. I must remember not to give any verbal praise only hand contact. If
I practice the habituation plus the recall (quite separately I hasten to
add), by the time the classes start next year, I should have cracked the
problem
Sonia
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soniaskinner
MH
Posts:98
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| 09/05/2008 2:08 AM |
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| >
> I continue to have to wonder about the origin of Drift's "jinxing" at the end
> of
> his delivery. I wish "we" had been able to "nip it in the bud" when it first
> reared its ugly head. Regardless, you must now work on recall to cure this
> quickly,
> IMO.
This started when he was a pup, would take retrieve to anyone but me,
wouldn't give it to them but would walk round and round them. He refused to
return dummy in the garden, playing with it. I cured that by ignoring
behaviour, going indoors and shutting him out alone. Now I have no problem
at all with him returning directly to me with dummy, sitting and presenting
anywhere EXCEPT when we are in a class. He will return on command or indeed
will return automatically after sent for a retrieve. It seems to be when we
are with other dogs and people I have this problem of jinxing away at last
minute, when he is with my other two dogs, no problem.
> recall on lead with a prong collar or choke chain collar. I'd spend as much
> time on
We don't have prong collars in UK but I do have a choke chain, e collars are
not generally used here, also very expensive. He does recall well, but I am
quite prepared to do as you say and really ingrain it into him. Thinking
about it, if he doesn't return that last foot in company then he is not
doing a perfect recall! I just don't understand why he is perfect with just
me every time, but plays up in company.
> but it would take much more time I'm sure. In the long run your best bet may
> be to
> follow the tutelege of your local mentors on this issue.
They seem to be baffled, seem to think I can command him to come in which
doesn't work. My idea would be to put him on a long line and ensure he
comes in, but I am not "allowed" to do that.
Thanks Jere, will work on recall on choke chain then dragging lead as you
advocated.
Weather diabolical here, rain, rain and even more rain, no summer at all.
Sonia
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lameduck
SH
Posts:44
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| 09/05/2008 7:20 AM |
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| To do the force is a whole program where you have to start at the
beginning. I never use the word fetch until the dog is actually grabbing
the object that I want it to grab and the reason is I don't want the dog
to build a resentment toward the word. I release my dogs starting at puppy
stage on their names. Then when I start blind retrieving drills I send
them on back. They go after marks because they want them. With a thorough
force program finished the dog will leave on command and get the bird and
hold it until told to release. You could probably serve your needs with
the hold part of the program which is where you start anyway. My program
even goes into the water force.
Ron
>
> Force fetching cannot be used on a dog then who is so keen to retrieve
> that
> he used to "run in"? Had end of term test last night, Drift was very
> steady, very keen to retrieve, marked well, did his blind well, heel work
> perfect but the wretch still jinxed at last minute and wouldn't give me
> the
> retrieve; I did get it from him eventually, but lots of play took place on
> his part first! (I had a brandy and ginger beforehand and was very
> relaxed)!
>
> How can I force fetch that!
>
> Sonia
>
>
>
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rospigan
MH
Posts:372
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| 09/05/2008 8:30 AM |
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The biggest problem with force training, very
generally speaking, is that the young dog rarely is really used to being handled
and has already got the taste of being at least a part time leader of its
pack/family. If the dog is well-trained and well fostered from puppy-hood and is
used to being handled in all ways, grooming, claw paring, examination of teeth,
ears, paws and such things, then the force fetch becomes only still one more of
those silly things people subject the dog to and the dog, that already is used
to a number of other silly things, will accept the treatment much faster and the
rest of it is more or less a piece of cake.
Problems arise when the dog is not used to being
handled and will try to fight back more or less seriously. So once again: No
matter what you intend to do with your puppy in the future . make sure the very
important basic training is done in time!
Torsti
Borta Med Vindens Kennel "Ask not what your dog can do for you. Ask
what you can do for your dog." www.rospigan.net |
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cwalt
MH
Posts:180
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| 09/05/2008 11:45 AM |
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| Jere Murray wrote:
> There are some misconceptions displayed in the passages quoted below if applied to
> general currently used "force" methods as practiced in the USA retriever training
> circles.
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I have no misconceptions since I am not discussing currently applied
"force" methods as practiced in USA retriever training. I think that
the terminology of applied behavior analysis is confusing for most dog
trainers and I don't use it in discussing specific recommendations for
training a versatile dog. Since the advice is getting very confusing
I will recuse myself from this 'conversation'.
Cj |
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soniaskinner
MH
Posts:98
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| 09/05/2008 1:23 PM |
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> hold it until told to release. You could probably serve your needs with
> the hold part of the program which is where you start anyway. My program
> even goes into the water force.
Thanks Ron.
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jmurr
MH
Posts:158
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| 09/05/2008 11:26 PM |
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| Yes, INGRAIN the behavior. You need to do this to counter condition that jinxing,
IMO. I HATE doing that stuff myself.
I had thought summer was here and gone on June 16, 17 when it was sunny and warm -
with highs of 63 degrees F; but then came the last four days of July with highs of
66, 66, 68 and the high for the year 70!! Now it is rain, rain, fog and the
inexorable slide to the cold of winter as the sun sinks lower and lower towards the
mountain tops.
Jere
>
> Weather diabolical here, rain, rain and even more rain, no summer at all.
>
> Sonia
>
>
>
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jmurr
MH
Posts:158
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| 09/05/2008 11:26 PM |
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| Yes, INGRAIN the behavior. You need to do this to counter condition that jinxing,
IMO. I HATE doing that stuff myself.
I had thought summer was here and gone on June 16, 17 when it was sunny and warm -
with highs of 63 degrees F; but then came the last four days of July with highs of
66, 66, 68 and the high for the year 70!! Now it is rain, rain, fog and the
inexorable slide to the cold of winter as the sun sinks lower and lower towards the
mountain tops.
Jere
>
> Weather diabolical here, rain, rain and even more rain, no summer at all.
>
> Sonia
>
>
>
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