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cwalt

MH
Posts:180

08/20/2008 4:48 PM
Jere Murray wrote: > Along this line may I suggest it is possible, with a suitably bred and > motivated > dog, to arrange training for some behaviors, including the "whoa," in such a manner > that they become self-reinforcing in the everyday experience of the dog and > therefore should not fade. But this would be another topic. > > Jere > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I would suggest that a trained command does not become self-reinforcing unless the dog is aware of the handler's body language. The 'self-reinforcement' for many behaviors is unconsciously provided by the handler and isn't originally part of the dog's emotional state. Many dog trainers never realize this and speak extensively about self-reinforcement that actually doesn't happen. I find that reinforcement of trained command responses is significantly affected by the handler's body language. This applies whether the response is appropriate or inappropriate, the handler releases This phenomenon seems to escape many behavior analysts (psychologists) who get inconsistent, or simply incorrect, information from their animal behavior experiments. For example most cases of breaking point or creeping on point are released by the handler's body language. This means that I can remedially train the dog to eliminate creeping or breaking without having any effect on the dog's behavior with the handler. In this case it is necessary to retrain both handler and dog to cure the problem. For stubborn people who refuse to alter their mental attitude, and therefore their body language, it is almost impossible to cure trained behavior problems. I would also suggest that versatile dog delivery to hand problems in the retrieve are largely associated with the handler's body language. The reason that I can make this assertion is that in experiments retrieve delivery problems always start _after_ the dog has recognized the handler either by facial features or body language. Cj

jmurr

MH
Posts:158

08/21/2008 4:27 AM
Perhaps I didn't say what I meant or didn't explain thoroughly enough I was thinking of the example Ken Middleton gave here some years ago and my own experience with the black puppy I was given when you and I first met. Ken was able to train his pointers to "sit" (in the British sense) and found that once they realized they would be promptly rewarded with a release to continue the action they wanted most - to run, they rapidly and enthusiastically complied with the "sit" command - which initially they had hated. Similarly, I used the black dog's intense "drive" to run and retrieve to train the remote "sit" (in the USA retriever protocol sense) and found the dog behaved similarly to Ken's pointers. It is not the command that becomes self-reinforceing in these cases; rather an intrinsic reward follows compliance to the command in the training environment as well as in the dog's everyday working environment so the proper response to the command is regularly reinforced by the occurance of that intrinsic reward. Jere > Jere Murray wrote: >> Along this line may I suggest it is possible, with a suitably bred and >> motivated >> dog, to arrange training for some behaviors, including the "whoa," in such a >> manner >> that they become self-reinforcing in the everyday experience of the dog and >> therefore should not fade. But this would be another topic. >> >> Jere >> >> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Cj said: > I would suggest that a trained command does not become self-reinforcing > unless the dog is aware of the handler's body language. The > 'self-reinforcement' for many behaviors is unconsciously provided by the > handler and isn't originally part of the dog's emotional state.

jmurr

MH
Posts:158

08/21/2008 4:34 AM
And after I had the "sit" pretty well established up close, I upped the anti and required proper delivery - return to side and sit or comply with a verbal and hand-signalled sit in front of and facing me - hold until given the release with the whole chain reinforced by release to retrieve again. This will only work with a dog sufficiently innately driven to relish the retrieve. Jere > Perhaps I didn't say what I meant or didn't explain thoroughly enough > > I was thinking of the example Ken Middleton gave here some years ago and my own > experience with the black puppy I was given when you and I first met. > > Ken was able to train his pointers to "sit" (in the British sense) and found that > once they realized they would be promptly rewarded with a release to continue the > action they wanted most - to run, they rapidly and enthusiastically complied with > the "sit" command - which initially they had hated. > > Similarly, I used the black dog's intense "drive" to run and retrieve to train the > remote "sit" (in the USA retriever protocol sense) and found the dog behaved > similarly to Ken's pointers. > > It is not the command that becomes self-reinforceing in these cases; rather an > intrinsic reward follows compliance to the command in the training environment as > well as in the dog's everyday working environment so the proper response to the > command is regularly reinforced by the occurance of that intrinsic reward. > > Jere

cwalt

MH
Posts:180

08/21/2008 6:39 AM
Jere Murray wrote: > And after I had the "sit" pretty well established up close, I upped the anti and > required proper delivery - return to side and sit or comply with a verbal and > hand-signalled sit in front of and facing me - hold until given the release with > the whole chain reinforced by release to retrieve again. > > This will only work with a dog sufficiently innately driven to relish the retrieve. > > Jere > ~~~~~~~~~~~~ I think that gradually chaining the whole delivery to hand routine, after the dog gets to you, is the key to keeping the dog interested. Remember that dogs love rituals, especially if your body language is attentive to them. With some few dogs that aren't 'driven' I have had to force train the termination of the retrieve and then work it around to being exciting fun. Body language is a big help as is voice control. The retrieve is the dog's job and I tend to shut up while developing it but the deliver to hand ritual is my job and I have to do it right or the dog loses interest. Cj

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