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cwalt

MH
Posts:180

08/12/2008 9:08 AM
Most predators form a mental search image to match against what they encounter while searching for prey. This is the basis for the very human experience of searching for a dropped dime and walking right over a dollar bill without noticing it. The search image in humans is a sort of mnemonic representing characteristics of the sought after target. For a dime the mnemonic might be small, shiny and round. There is no doubt that dogs form olfactory search images. After finding a half dozen woodcock it isn't unusual for a dog to get a little too close to a grouse before recognizing it. In tests I have seen many dogs handle two or three quail and then flush a chukar because it didn't key in on the scent. The biological function of a search image is to speed up the sorting of environmental phenomena to select only the edible ones without wasting time thinking about each thing encountered. After two or three days of pheasant hunting in Nova Scotia it isn't unusual for my dogs to be completely baffled by an encounter with the occasional grouse. For a further discussion of olfactory search images see: Olfactory search at high Reynolds number Eugene Balkovsky† and Boris I. Shraiman†‡§ James Franck Institute and Department of Mathematics, University of Chicago, 5640 South Ellis Avenue, Chicago, IL 60637; and ‡Bell Labs, Cj

wkoob

Posts:6

08/12/2008 10:04 AM
Thanks for the insight - I was thinking more along that the dog was not allowed to be successful on the retrieve of the thrown bird (with shot) and the flushed bird (killed) and he thought they were not wanted. I think your view makes more sense. Trouble is that the tests I want to attend are all running chukars and I have scoured the whole state of SD and cannot find any chukars to cure the problem. I was in a timed competition last friday and chukars were the bird - dog hunted well as far as ground coverage - just never found any birds - until he found a pheasant that was not suppose to be there. Trouble continued into the hunt test the next day.. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cj" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 9:54 AM Subject: [working-gundog] unintend consequences or search image? > Most predators form a mental search image to matchnd against what they > encounter while searching for prey. This is the basis for the very human > experience of searching for a dropped dime and walking right over a > dollar bill without noticing it. The search image in humans is a sort of > mnemonic representing characteristics of the sought after target. For a > dime the mnemonic might be small, shiny and round. There is no doubt > that dogs form olfactory search images. After finding a half dozen > woodcock it isn't unusual for a dog to get a little too close to a > grouse before recognizing it. In tests I have seen many dogs handle two > or three quail and then flush a chukar because it didn't key in on the > scent. The biological function of a search image is to speed up the > sorting of environmental phenomena to select only the edible ones > without wasting time thinking about each thing encountered. After two or > three days of pheasant hunting in Nova Scotia it isn't unusual for my > dogs to be completely baffled by an encounter with the occasional grouse. > > For a further discussion of olfactory search images see: > > Olfactory search at high Reynolds number > Eugene Balkovsky† and Boris I. Shraiman†‡§ > James Franck Institute and Department of Mathematics, University of > Chicago, > 5640 South Ellis Avenue, Chicago, IL 60637; and ‡Bell Labs, > > Cj >

cwalt

MH
Posts:180

08/12/2008 12:49 PM
bill koob wrote: > Trouble is that the tests I want to attend are all running chukars and I > have scoured the whole state of SD and cannot find any chukars to cure the > problem. > One of the tactics I have used for introduction of young dogs to strange birds is to hang around the test or trial grounds until the ceremonials are all over and then take the pup hunting on the trial grounds. Sooner or later the dogs run into the trial birds and can develop their own search images. In almost all test/trial sites there are places where the released birds accumulate and if you can discern these places a short run can put your dog into a half dozen of these gathering birds in a few minutes. At some tests there will be dead birds that you can get after the test is over, help them clean up the grounds. Freeze the birds and use them for drag tracks or retrieving exercises. Be versatile... { Cj

jmurr

MH
Posts:158

08/12/2008 3:17 PM
Darn Bill, I'm sure someone on a pointing lab forum talked about raising lots of chukars just around the corner from you last year. I'll post there and see if anyone pops up with a source for you. Jere Wetdog said: ... > Trouble is that the tests I want to attend are all running chukars and I > have scoured the whole state of SD and cannot find any chukars to cure the > problem. >

jmurr

MH
Posts:158

08/13/2008 6:33 AM
Based on his observations of dogs, Clem has been insisting for years to the effect "dogs can discriminate between birds of different species, sex and health condition." Further it seems fairly well known that young predators have to learn which critters constitute prey and which are of no value or are dangerous. Typically they learn this from an adult or, in the case of birddogs, from their human mentor. Much birddog folklore substantiates Clem's position and this related fact. One simple example is the observation that young dogs enthusiastically persue and point what birddoggers call "trash birds" such as "field larks" and robins until they have learned, through display of total disinterest by their human mentor, these critters are not what we're after. To the contrary, our display of enthusiasm for their efforts towards game birds works to concentrate their attention there. Whether their lack of continued interest in "twitty birds" is the result of an unconscious "blindness" to the scent picture presented or is a conscious action may or may not have been shown but their ability to discriminate between different olfactory inputs is clear. Part of the explanation of how the olfactory sensory system works to effect this discrimination at the molecular level is the subject of the work that earned Linda Buck and director of the lab she worked in, Richard Axel, the 2004 Nobel Prize. Her continued work has revealed considerable differences between how the visual and olfactory systems process the sensory information, in particular how different mixtures of oderants end up being processed into a very large number of distinct patterns in the brain - but that is a different subject. I'll send something which does not appear to still be available on the 'net, Clem. However, from all you've said, Bill; I don't think this is a matter of the dog unconsiously missing chukars as a result of a fixation on another specie's scent pattern in its search. The fact that the dog searched, located, persued and trapped a chukar in that hunt test, but has been since "unable" to locate chukars dead or alive argues it is blinking that type of bird not missing them. I believe something adversely impressed the dog in that trapping incident or immediately after and the dog has avoided pen raised chukars since. I may have located a source for chukars somewhat SW of Sioux Falls. Sending contact info by email. Jere > Thanks for the insight - I was thinking more along that the dog was not > allowed to be successful on the retrieve of the thrown bird (with shot) and > the flushed bird (killed) and he thought they were not wanted. > I think your view makes more sense. .... > > I was in a timed competition last friday and chukars were the bird - dog > hunted well as far as ground coverage - just never found any birds - until > he found a pheasant that was not suppose to be there. Trouble continued into > the hunt test the next day.. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Cj" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 9:54 AM > Subject: [working-gundog] unintend consequences or search image? > > >> Most predators form a mental search image to matchnd against what they >> encounter while searching for prey. This is the basis for the very human >> experience of searching for a dropped dime and walking right over a >> dollar bill without noticing it. ... >> Cj

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