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Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:724
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| 06/21/2008 10:14 AM |
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I didn't want to sidetrack Ken's Honoring discussion so started a new post for this.
How do the Judges and those experienced in Testing feel about the idea of a Designated Gunner in the Junior Field to flush and blank off pointed birds, while allowing the Handlers of Junior Dogs to collar them to prevent a chase?
Earlier this Spring, the President of another Club where I was Testing and I approached the AKC Rep with this question and they in turn took it up the chain of command. Initially we were given an "informal acceptance" of this for FUTURE EVENTS by the AKC, as long as the Premium CLEARLY stated this, but it was later rejected after an apparent stink was made. I'm not sure of what the stink was and just heard back that it would not be allowed.
The reasoning for this suggestion was quite simple. Should a person Green Break a dog, they are not about to run it in Junior and have all that training go down the tubes due to the inability to correct the dog, or prevent a chase. On the other hand, were you able to collar your Junior dog and allow a Designated Gunner to go in and flush and blank off the bird, you have prevented allowing the lesson to be taught, that they can chase the bird after the flush. Lets face it, everytime a dog that is beyond just getting the desire instilled in it by chasing, you are teaching a lesson that will take a fair amount of training to break that habit before you could move up to Senior, or Master. Were we able to prevent these lessons from the get go, it would likely increase participation to some small degree in JH by the more skilled Trainers/Handlers and also make the job easier for the lesser skilled to move on to Senior after Junior, rather than giving up in frustration because they can't break a dog of the chase.
I hope this is understandable.
Thoughts?
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Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
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Trey
SW Iowa
MH
Posts:516
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| 06/21/2008 11:03 AM |
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My feeling is, jh is for 6 month old dogs, not started any kind of training. I don't run jh or senior for that matter, but I do like to run pups in puppy ft (no birds required). But if I wanted to run jh, I would do it when the dog is 6 months old. Nothing makes me more insane then judging a jh test full of 3 and 4 year old dogs, and the handlers bitching because their dog caught birds. IMO, they should put an age limit (16 months) on dogs for JH.
In NA tests, we do let people collar their dogs, but since dogs in navhda are hit in nose for unproductive points, I will let the handler collar the dog, then take the dog and the handler is responsible for producing the bird. |
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WildRose
Seymour Texas
MH
Posts:471
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| 06/21/2008 2:52 PM |
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I might be persuaded otherwise Bruce but at first blush, no I would not be in favor of this. Testing is supposed to be about seeing the combination of natural ability and training. It isn't supposed to be about making the trainer's job easier.
I realize (boy do I realize) sometimes the quality of training birds available for a hunt test is pretty piss poor, or that for example you can have a test scheduled on a day when it's drizzling rain all day and the birds simply can't fly.
In the latter scenario I think judges SHOULD be given lattitude to allow a handler to collar their dog after establishing point and have someone designated to flush or at least make an attempt, but the handler should still be the one firing the shot.
I don't buy the excuse that "well that might make my dog gun shy firing so close". Horse hockey, get the dog properly exposed to the gun prior and it's not an issue. One thing that really irritates me both as a judge and as a handler is when it's obvious people are delaying the shot beyond normal gun range to avoid this issue. CR |
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There's a reason I like dogs better'n people... . |
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escampbell
MH
Posts:213
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| 06/21/2008 4:52 PM |
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Without answering the collaring question, can I just say that I am opposed to putting any age limit on dogs who run at the JH level. My first JH was on my then 6-year old GSP last year. To me, a JH test is not only for green dogs, but for green people, like me.
My new puppy did just recently get her first two JH legs at 6 months of age. She won't get any more until the Fall as hunt test season is over around here. But had I not had the experience of running my older dog, I doubt I would now be taking weekly lessons with my pup and hoping she can be an SH some day. Thet first JH was no no big deal to many, but big TO ME. I was so nervous about my first test, I made my instructor put me through my paces before I would enter. I carefully checked out what equipment to buy and borrowed a blank gun.
I am also pursuing herding with my young Sheltie. HT is simple and basic just like JH. I also started out there in herding - most experienced people just skip that level. I am an obedience and agility afficianado and I never would have added in these other sports without the availability of basic lower level tests. Sort of like Rally Novice to those just starting in obedience.
Just my thoughts,
Eleanor Campbell
New Jersey
OTCh Sydney, Ch Price UD JH AX AXJ, Soleil (two legs JH), and the three Shelties including Ozma HT (one leg PT!)
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Eleanor Campbell
New Jersey
Sydney, Presto, Price, Ozma and Soleil |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:6744
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DesertRoseKennel
MH
Posts:1033
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| 06/21/2008 7:36 PM |
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Bruce - a good question you pose. I wouldn't have a problem with that. There's a reason we don't run JH - and that's because you take MANY steps back in training if you do. Even my 6 mos old pups aren't allowed to chase. As a judge, I did have a handler ask me if I was ok with him collaring his dog prior to flushing the bird (same reason, to prevent chasing) and I approved it. That's not always practical, but in that particular situation it worked.
Jean |
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"Our dogs are bred to be champion hunters who sleep on the bed"
www.desertrosekennel.com |
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Ken Lynch
Hudson Valley in NY
MH
Posts:200
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| 06/21/2008 7:59 PM |
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Bruce,
Thanks for starting a different thread on a different subject.
Just came from Hunt Test Seminar. The subject of designated flusher and shooter was brought up. Originally it was as you said (OK if stated in premium) but after further thinking it was decided against. The reversal was caused because it was felt that the hunt test then became a training session. Go figure. I also thought the original idea was reasonable. Upon further thinking I am not sure that it ends up solving the intended problem, catching birds or exchanging it for another. It reduces the number of scenarios where the dog can catch birds. But not all. You push on a balloon at one spot and it bulges out at another. After wet bird is chased and fired over how far do you heal or collar your pup away before releasing it. Still can’t prevent dog with a lot of desire from immediately doubling back and catching bird. Are you now setting up the dog to do delayed chases?
As for the questions on age limit I think it has no place relative to hunt tests. Hunt tests are tests of a dogs skill level and skill levels have nothing to do with age. Would you put an age limit on High School Diplomas or Collage Diplomas?
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Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:724
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| 06/21/2008 9:01 PM |
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I agree Trey as a Breeder, with the idea of Testing as young as reasonable for JH to get a good view of what inherent abilities they may have right out of the box. I can't agree with the age limit for the reasons as posted by others. For many NEW HANDLERS, they come into Hunt Testing for the 1st time in their lives when their dog is possibly older and I wouldn't want to prevent/intimidate a newbie away from playing their first Testing Game, because they had an older dog. The trick is to encourage further participation to higher levels!
Jean,
You are dead on with what I'm getting at, as to the steps taken backwards in just a few JH Test! I've had several young dogs "break themselves to wing/shot" on the Woodcock flights coming back North in the Spring, at as young as 4-5 months; only to go in full reverse by the 4th JH Test at 6-7 months!
Ken,
I can understand what you are getting at with the delayed chase and I can't say the potential isn't there. I personally put myself between the dogs head and the bird, blocking their view of where the bird went down at, and heel them out of an area for 10-20 yards before sending them on. Usually most pups seem to be willing to get back forward and hunting after losing a clear mark on the bird that has left; but I'm equally sure I've had to hack at a pup or two to keep them from going backwards to go looking for the bird, instead of getting back up front and hunting for the next one.
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Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
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amos1
Posts:3
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| 06/26/2008 6:05 AM |
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Bruce,
I was ther the day you asked the rep and called in and asked the question. I'm agreeable to the suggestion.I think you forgot one point and that is it is an option for the handler. Less experienced or beginner handlers dont have to use the gunner/flusher.I ran the idea by some friends and got all sort of reactions mostly in support.
Phil |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:3909
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| 06/26/2008 8:24 AM |
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I don't agree that JH should be about skill level.Or SH, either. These early tests,non finished dogs, should be showing natural ability,not a level of skill. Pointing is not a skill.
I don't agree in the no age limit,b/c I believe at some point natural ability can be lost or buried.
In JH a dog ought to be showing it's stuff, in SH a dog ought to be showing drive,desire and be a little rough around the edges and in MH be obedient.
It all boils down to whether or not the handler did the work with the dog and if the dog has what it takes. It is an option to skip and go straight to MH. I am all for getting dogs to pass but some responsilbity has to be put on the dog and handler.I mean, think about it, is JH really all that difficult?
Maybe AKC needs to change the way the judges judge and their qualifications? Just a thought.
Francine |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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