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hopper187
Posts:2
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| 03/10/2008 7:56 PM |
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I will be picking up my very first GSP next week. I am planning on training him for hunting, and after reading some of the threads I picked up Bill Tarrants book on the Delmar Smith method. His advise is to do no other training in the first year other than: his name, come, no, and casting off. That seems like very little to teach in the first year, and an awefull slow start. Any advise on how soon to start introducing obedience commands, birds, ect. would be great, thanks. |
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RyanGSP
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Posts:446
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| 03/10/2008 9:07 PM |
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I dont so any training except those you mentioned (i use that book as well) except instead of 1 year I wait till they finish their first season. After that I look at the pup to see where he is. If he is starting to hold point long enough for me to get up to him I start to break him to Wing and shot or steady him to flush.
I also look at his retrieve, if he can take it I will force fetch the dog.
I let birds teach the dog, not me teach the dog. Dont get me wrong I step in and break the dog to W&S and work on backing. Other than that its all wild birds. If you dont have wild birds set up a johnny house and put some quail or chukar in there.
You dont really want to rush the dog for the first year its all about fun and exposure.
You may want to pick up Perfect Start and Perfect Finish. |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4476
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| 03/11/2008 7:10 AM |
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Does the book suggest you expose a puppy to birds and hunting at all?
Like pointing,searching,hold,retrieving,whoa,water,gun fire.
There is so much a young dog can absorb in the first year it would be a shame to loose those 'sponge" months.
It only takes a few days to a week to teach any of those commands you mentioned and not long for a dog to master, what do you do with the rest of the time?
Gosh, before my dog was 1 year old he was doing directional commands,blinds,searches and so much more.
I don't know if I would want to wait a year before having a hunting dog develope it's natural abilities and gain confidence in field situations.
I guess much would depend on the dog's character, so you will have to wait and see what he is like and then how much can be introduced and at what rate.
I can say 1 thing for certain tho, you will love every minute of it.
Francine
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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hopper187
Posts:2
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| 03/11/2008 10:26 AM |
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Ryan, thanks for the advise. Could you define"his first season", and what you mean by "breaking him to wing and shot". Sorry to come off like such a newbie, I have raised a few pups but never a good pointer and I want to get it right. Thanks again for the help |
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RyanGSP
MH
Posts:446
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| 03/11/2008 3:42 PM |
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By his first season I mean his first full season of hunting from start to finish. This is where he will learn everything birds have to offer. Birds and hunting will teach everything that francine has said she teaches her dogs. Its all about exposure their first season. The only thing I would do preseason is introduce him to gun fire on wild birds (if your laws allow this). After that hunting will teach him the rest he will need for his first season.
By breaking a dog to Wing and Shot is to teach a dog not to move until instructed to do so before, during, and after game is shot. Basically once the dog points he is not to move until instructed. The same with backing, once the dog backs another dog he is not to move until instructed to.
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4476
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| 03/11/2008 5:08 PM |
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If all hunting were upland bird hunting then Ryan's assumption would be correct. Thing is, wild bird hunting does not include water and searches in water,fur/feather drags with delivery to hand, casting,including blinds on land and water,FF and so much more.All of which my dog was doing before 1 year of age.
What I teach my dog is different then what I expose my dog to.
What I teach my dog a dog can not learn in the field during hunting.What I expose him to enhances his ability,confidence and thinking,amoung other things.
Many people, including myself, begin to teach steadiness to fall in the first year. Meaning the desire to chase is not encouraged. Wild bird hunting will not teach a dog to be steady to shot or fall.
What you let a dog do is what a dog will learn.
I find that a puppy is very capable of handling pressures appropriate for the age and that these pressures enable the dog to take pressures later on when training gets demanding.
Wild bird hunting is great for dogs and does teach them how to handle birds well along with tracking them.
If an owner needs to wait for a dog to get 1 full season under his belt before he knows what that dog can do then not only has precious time been wasted but that owner has no idea about hunting and training dogs. IMO.
Francine |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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RyanGSP
MH
Posts:446
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| 03/11/2008 6:49 PM |
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"If all hunting were upland bird hunting then Ryan's assumption would be correct. Thing is, wild bird hunting does not include water and searches in water,fur/feather drags with delivery to hand, casting,including blinds on land and water,FF and so much more"
You have obviously never been pheasant hunting for wild birds. Those preserve hunts must be fun eh. If he trains the dogs and exposes the dogs when hunting the dog will learn everything it needs to learn to hunt what he hunts. I have never had a dog see a bird go down in a pond or lake and not want to make the retrieve even as a puppy. Some did take a little encouraging to go that far (I was silly and made a far shot) but they all did it their first year. If you want to expose to water a day at the lake with pup is a great way to get him into the water and a nice way to get out with the family.
" Many people, including myself, begin to teach steadiness to fall in the first year. Meaning the desire to chase is not encouraged. Wild bird hunting will not teach a dog to be steady to shot or fall. "
Breaking a dog too early will really cut down on the drive and intensity of the dog. I have seen Haiko on point and he doesnt look all that intense.... probably because you broke him too early. You are not trying to break the dog his first season. You are building drive and confidence their first season. If you dont develop these and break the dog too early they will get bored and may stop pointing birds. Now if the dog naturally starts to break its self ,many do, I wouldnt be afraid of stepping in and finishing it off.
" If an owner needs to wait for a dog to get 1 full season under his belt before he knows what that dog can do then not only has precious time been wasted but that owner has no idea about hunting and training dogs. "
Your entitled to your own opinion francine everyone is but to say that time is being wasted is simply a lack of experience with this type of training. The first year is all about building drive, experience and a want for birds. This is not wasted time this will mould your building blocks and help develop that drive for birds. But hey I guess if I wanted a dog that could hunt like they do in Germany I would ask you right.
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RyanGSP
MH
Posts:446
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| 03/11/2008 6:51 PM |
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Oh and as for delivery to hand and fetching. the pup will come around and if you encourage him to bring it to hand in the field he will. If you are having problems after the first year I have a great 8-12 week program called Force Fetch or the Trained Retrieve that will cure any fetching problems you have.
I am also interested in what you teach your dog that he cannot learn in the field. Because I would be willing to bet you do teach it when hunting you just dont know it. |
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Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:732
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| 03/11/2008 9:38 PM |
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Hopper,
Take a look at Rick and Ronnie Smith Puppy Development and Puppy Development II
There are lots of things you can be doing with your pup now, that will help you train later. It will be money well spent.
Introductions young, a little bit higher expectations around 5-8 months and then start "serious training" around 1 year. The key here is to not be any more demanding than the pup is capable of performing. Some mature faster, some mature slower; you must be able to read the pup and decide what it is that you expect to accomplish with the pup, what you expect to require when finished and then tune your training to those desires and the pups abilities and maturity. |
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Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4476
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| 03/12/2008 9:59 AM |
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hopper,
have you looked into Joan Bailey's book " How to help gun dogs train themselves"?
Training is never a cookie cutter approach. A trainer needs to be ecclectic in their approach.
Check out a few field trials,hunt tests or NAVHDA tests that may be in your area. A person can learn so much just by watching other dogs and seeing what it is supposed to look like and what it's not supposed to look like.
In the mean time - have a great time socializing your new little terror and you better post pictures!
Francine |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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