|
| Author |
Messages |
|
Almost Heaven GSP Springfield, WV
 MH Posts:731


 |
| 02/21/2010 9:14 AM |
|
One last thing I should clarify:
I have Liver sons and daughters, grand sons and grand daughters from my breedings from my Black Male, that also show an amazing quality of nose. So it could be just my lines, or ot could be a result of what my Black male has contributed to them, I dunno scientifally and factually.
Here is just one:

Note the White Pigeon some 80 yards down field I'm flushing.

|
|
Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer Almost Heaven GSP's
|
|
|
pixie bee
 MH Posts:4452


 |
| 02/21/2010 9:16 AM |
|
Why not a duck search and a fur drag,or tracking of small live game? Come on, this is a versatile breed,not a specialist. I'm all for breeding regulations for the GSP. The RDX come close but it is obedience not natural ability. It shows little about a dog's breeding. Francine |
|
"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
|
|
|
pixie bee
 MH Posts:4452


 |
| 02/21/2010 9:19 AM |
|
I'm not sure the quality of nose needed improvement - they just wanted to raise the head. Francine |
|
"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
|
|
|
CathyYak
 MH Posts:963


 |
| 02/21/2010 9:28 AM |
|
Please go here to read the facts, as opposed to assumptions. http://www.windrivers-gsp.com/historyGSPCA.php |
|
Cathy Iacopelli Claddagh Kennels Long Island, New York |
|
|
Almost Heaven GSP Springfield, WV
 MH Posts:731


 |
| 02/21/2010 10:02 AM |
|
I don't know Francine, it would only be supposition at best, but I can only go on what the History Books tell me. From page 23 of "Der Deutsch Kurzhaar": "Many of the early Liver dogs were pale in colour and had light eyes. In addition, there was a perceived weakness in air-scenting ability in the breed." In reference to the introduction of the Arkwright Pointer, also on page 23: "This introduction was made in the hope that both pigment and "high nose" would be improved." I could reference some of my other books as well if it would serve to benefit the discussion for everyone. |
|
Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer Almost Heaven GSP's
|
|
|
pixie bee
 MH Posts:4452


 |
| 02/21/2010 12:01 PM |
|
In order to track and trail the nose is better then an air scenter -it takes a much more sensitive nose to trail and track. They,for obvious reasons, wanted and needed the head to be higher. This was achieved with the pointer influence,along with other (undesirable) traits. The quote only mentions a "percieved weakness in air-scenting". It does not say the nose was not sensitive. A low nose would cause a "weakness in air scenting". Does WindRivers breed DKs? Where did they get their info from? Francine |
|
"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
|
|
|
briarpatch N.J.
 MH Posts:168


 |
| 02/21/2010 12:18 PM |
|
I dont quite understand what color has do to with proper conformation of a hunting dog anyway if he or she is properly proportioned to do the job that is where the standards should stop. "form follows function" so why do we care if a dog is black, white, a tri or camo for that matter as long as it's conformation is correct to handle the job of hunting, such as snout long enough to carry game and not to heavy as to be clumbersome, who gives a rats behind what color they are. Everyone gets in a tizzy over these so called rare colors, one black is not a rare color it has been well documented when and where it came from, and we all know English pointers were used in the making of the breed so we should expect to see a white pup now and again from the EP, We also know numerous Hounds were used to make up the breed we should also expect to see tri's now and again as many hounds are tri colored, whats the big hangup on colors, the standard should be revised to allow any color.. conformation should be of the dogs proportion to handle the job of hunting properly. the form should follow the function as the creators of the breed intended..I think its a sin people cull dogs for them being born the wrong color because the standard judges them on color maybe that odd colored pup was going to grow up to be the best hunting dog on the planet we will never know with breeding for standardized colors as usually the odd colors are culled immediately so noone outside the kennel knew there was an odd color in the batch. Food for thought... |
|
My Pups:
   
|
|
|
CathyYak
 MH Posts:963


 |
| 02/21/2010 2:23 PM |
|
| The link was on the WindRiver site, the author is Patte Titus. |
|
Cathy Iacopelli Claddagh Kennels Long Island, New York |
|
|
Texas Belle Austin, TX
 MH Posts:7851


 |
| 02/21/2010 3:54 PM |
|
| As I said in an earlier post, Patte Titus has a wealth of knowledge about the breed especially when it comes to the history of the breed, genetics, etc. She is also very willing to share that knowledge and writes articles all the time for the Shorthair Journal and other publications. |
|
Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
|
|
RyanGSP
 MH Posts:430

 |
| 02/21/2010 8:45 PM |
|
That GSP is purebred its even a legit DK color if you go back and look. I will find the name for you guys. Whether you like the color or not its legit. FDX requires a water retrieve Zodiak I thought MH did as well. Its doesnt require a track I was just stating IMO I wouldnt complain if there was one. |
|
|
|
|
CathyYak
 MH Posts:963


 |
| 02/21/2010 9:34 PM |
|
| I'd be very interested in knowing what color you call that and where it is listed as legit. Thanks for getting back to us with the info. |
|
Cathy Iacopelli Claddagh Kennels Long Island, New York |
|
|
RyanGSP
 MH Posts:430

 |
|
pixie bee
 MH Posts:4452


 |
| 02/22/2010 4:17 AM |
|
Nope,sorry,don't buy it. What about the nose color? Francine |
|
"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
|
|
|
Almost Heaven GSP Springfield, WV
 MH Posts:731


 |
| 02/22/2010 5:49 AM |
|
Ryan,
That is NOT Gelber Brand. Gelber Brand has a very specific Genetic coding due to the Gene locus
"A"(agouti) and would be the small "a" with the "t" which is responsible for the tan points found in the Dobe and Rottie.
There are also the Wurtemberg Pointers that would look "similar" to a Shorthair with a Gelber Brand, but are neither Shorthairs, nor is it a Gelber Brand.
I recalled the dog in the pic you posted from another forum and here is what I posted over there concerning this dog of his:
Okay, this is an interesting one. I went back and looked at the info
in Georgina's book and she was quoting Burns (1952) who was using info
from the Danish Stud book about a litter of 11 GSP pups from two
normal colored "brown" parents that produced nine brown pups and 2
that were "cinnamon colored". Burns attributed this to a modifying
gene Z named by Steiger (1936). Willis(1977) mentions but doesn't
name five alleles for color paling in the German Shepherd(okay here we
go again with another breed) thus leading Georgina to the possibility
there may be another gene other than the "C" locus gene that is
responsible for the depth of color in the liver dogs. She then
continues to say that it is worthwhile to point out that a problem
exist(most prefer the darker dogs) and the C" locus gene alleles
provide a possible explanation. Keep in mind she states "possible
explanation".
All of this said I happen to have Dr. Ojvind Winge, a Danish
geneticist book that shows how inheritable factors are passed through
the generations and how they may apparently disappear, only to show up
later....
Anyway from his book, Chapter XXI - Short-haired Bird Dog(the GSP as
we know it) which has great plates that show the various color
combinations and the gene locus. As it pertains to Cinnamon he
attributes it to the Z gene. Following is direct quote from his
book. "Z. Cinnamon colored, "Zimtfarben," intensity factor. Brown
and red dogs that lack Z and therefore have zz receive a light color
than Z-dogs. The eyes are also lighter.'
Also direct quote from his book is the litter referenced by Georgina
which I mentioned above. "Finally, in brown dogs, both a darker brown
and a lighter brown, presumably a recessive shade, are found. The
gene Z, so named by Steiger(1936), is found in nearly all Shorthairs.
If it is lacking and zz occurs, the brown coat is modified to a
cinnamon color. Thus, in the offspring of 90368 Freja of
Helhoejgaard(brown) and 64829 Flok (brown-speckled with brown
markings) nine brown and two cinnamon-colored puppies occurred."
Quite possibly and perhaps apparently, in your pup as well.
|
|
Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer Almost Heaven GSP's
|
|
|
CathyYak
 MH Posts:963


 |
| 02/22/2010 5:55 AM |
|
The idea that recessive genes from the 1950's are popping up now in another country with possibly unrelated dogs is extremely far fetched. What is more likely is someone's dog was bred either knowingly or accidentally with a dog of another breed. If you want to prove this is not the case, as I said, please DNA the three generations before this dog and prove that the dog is the decendent of the dogs listed on it's pedigree. I would also suggest that perhaps the original cinnamon colored dogs mentioned were also the result of crossbreeding, though there was no way to prove or disprove that back then. The simplest emplanation is usually the right one... And I would bet money that that whatever colored dog is no purebred GSP. |
|
Cathy Iacopelli Claddagh Kennels Long Island, New York |
|
|
pixie bee
 MH Posts:4452


 |
| 02/22/2010 7:51 AM |
|
The point is mute. The was registered as a GSP and will go down in the books as a GSP.What would be nice to hear is that the dog will not be bred and measures have been taken to ensure this. A question: can any color bitch or dog carry this cinnamon gene? And is it mentioned what color the nose should be? I would be more interested in a 5 generation of pure bred proof. Francine |
|
"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
|
|
|
CathyYak
 MH Posts:963


 |
| 02/22/2010 8:41 AM |
|
<
Francine>>
The only proof I would personally accept in such a case is DNA proof that the sire and dam are who they say they are. Tthe chances that 5 generations behind the dog in question are alive to be DNA'd are slim. It is also a slim chance that the people involved would put their money where their mouths are and pay to DNA test several generations. Unfortunately.
|
|
Cathy Iacopelli Claddagh Kennels Long Island, New York |
|
|
pixie bee
 MH Posts:4452


 |
| 02/22/2010 10:08 AM |
|
I agree. But, this is you and me(and some others). Based on some posts on this thread there are those who accept fault colors just b/c the dog displays 'form follows function'. What about all the others who see this as pure bred? How many puppies/dogs will be registered? This new color is allowed in all venues except the ring. Same issue as the black. In 10 years we will have those patitioning for yellow/cinnamon. This is one reason I went with DKs. As pure bred as one can get. Francine |
|
"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
|
|
|
CathyYak
 MH Posts:963


 |
| 02/22/2010 10:33 AM |
|
This is one reason I went with DKs. As pure bred as one can get.
Francine>>
To play devil's advocate, unless you have DNA on every generation, then you have no more proof than anyone else that the dogs in your pedigree are the dogs who should be there. People make mistakes, dogs are dogs, and some people are downright dishonest. I can't imagine that people who own Dk's are automatically totoally honest all through history.
Again, playing devil's advocate.
|
|
Cathy Iacopelli Claddagh Kennels Long Island, New York |
|
|
escampbell
 MH Posts:213


 |
| 02/22/2010 11:32 AM |
|
ALC registered purebred dogs who have characteristics that may DQ them in the AKC breed ring, have always been allowed to compete in AKC performance events, because they are purebred, DQs and all. Think, oversized or undersized Shelties, long haired German Shepherds or Corgis, particolored poodles, long-haired Weims, wirehaired Viszlas, the list is endless. Some of these faults/DQs are universal, others are particular to the AKC, and acceptable in other countries/registries. In this country, we have always left it to the breeders to make the decsions. Good or bad, that is the way we do it. Yes, unscrupulous people will try to market "new" or "rare" dogs. And historically, even the best breeders have no doubt had "oops" breedings take place. But all this does not persuade me that allowing black pigmented GSPs in the AKC breed ring is a bad thing. Again, this is not some internet fad or a new designer GSP. The history of the color is clear. And, no, you will not ever see me saying that a good GSP can be any color. Sure, a good hunting dog can be any color, but we are discussing the GSP breed. |
|
Eleanor Campbell New Jersey Sydney, Presto, Price, Ozma and Soleil |
|
|
|
| You are not authorized to post a reply. |
|
|
|
ActiveForums 3.7
|
You must be logged in to use this module.
|
 |
Membership: |
 |
Latest:
cfl_short |
 |
New Today:
2 |
 |
New Yesterday:
0 |
 |
Overall:
3208 |
 |
People Online: |
 |
Visitors:
102 |
 |
Members:
0 |
 |
Total:
102 |
Online Now:
|
|
|
|
|