dylandarling
craryville ny
MH
Posts:75
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| 01/22/2011 8:15 PM |
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thats what I like about OFA, you can search the dogs ..VS Penn Hip
also just had a discussion re cardiac evaluation..the cardiologist said that he may not hear a murmur during the office asculation, this does not rule out AS, so really an echo should be done..ANYWAY..I have seen some dogs, all breeds that are not correct but are breed champions..go figure...are the titles important??..I would like to see performance titles..I WOULD really like to see the dog in person |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7926
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| 01/22/2011 10:37 PM |
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| dylandarling - As in all things there is no perfect system, especially where humans are part of the analysis. And given a good handler, you can disguise a multitude of issues where in the field or the breed ring. Still, I think for the most part the systems are pretty good. Still I like to see a combo and always recommend the buyer do their homework. As they say caveat emptor, let the buyer beware. Of course, as a breeder I am just as careful in evaluating a prospective buyer for one of my puppies. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
   
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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RyanGSP
MH
Posts:446
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| 01/22/2011 10:51 PM |
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The bottom line is a person shouldnt be looking at a dog show for a Field Trial dog, a Field Trial for a show dog, and at a therapy clinic for aggressive dogs for a family dog.
Like you said the buy needs to do their own research and know where to look to find the dog that suits their needs. |
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briarpatch
N.J.
MH
Posts:168
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| 01/23/2011 5:39 AM |
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I agree , is the system here in the USA perfect far from it , but with a little research a buyer can find whatever it is they are looking for within the breed... If they want a heavy titled background or heavily titled parents in a particular field its easily found, is a backyard breeder or hobby breeder such as myself really going to have a impact on the breed , NO not all that many people are going to want to buy or breed to a dog without some titles and or references in the field they plan to use their dog in to back it up.. Although its far from perfect I think the current system works fairly well ..If I want a show prospect or a field prospect or a Duel prospect or a NAVHDA or Hunt test prospect within minutes I can find tons of prime canidates with a little research..
So although far from perfect the current system does work and people who believe their dogs need meet certain testing or qualification requirements before breeding can impose those requirements upon thierselves before breeding and may choose to only buy from other breeders whos dogs meet their minimum requirements.. Its a free country ...
What one believes is a diservice to the breed another will find as a benefit to the breed..
And buyers do need to do their homework before purchasing any dog when it comes to any hunting dog breed .. |
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My Pups:
   
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4476
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| 01/23/2011 9:11 AM |
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One distinct difference I see between a system that has breeding requirements and a system that doesn't is that the system with the breeding requirements ,99% of the time, requires the buyer to do reseach to find a dog that can hunt/compete to their likeing.In a system w/o breeding requirements much of the time the buyer is also required to do research to find proper health,temperment and conformation.
There are no backyard breeders in a system with breeding requirements. The system is designed to preserve genotype and phenotype.
Allowing any 2 dogs to breed for sure keeps the breed diversified - but who really has need of all that useless diversification?
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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RyanGSP
MH
Posts:446
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| 01/23/2011 9:15 AM |
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I diasgree pixie with this statement
"There are no backyard breeders in a system with breeding requirements."
I would however venture to say in a System where there is requirements there would be less backyard breeders than one without requirements. But there is going to be backyards breeders no matter what breed and where you go. |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4476
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| 01/23/2011 9:20 AM |
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| A backyar breeder does not spend in the neighborhood of $5,000 to qualify a dog. Training,game,time,hips,traveling,2 field tests and 1 -2 conformation ratings. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4476
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briarpatch
N.J.
MH
Posts:168
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| 01/23/2011 10:17 AM |
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So you need not do any research on a DK breeder you just grab a pup from any DK breeders litter and they are all the same ?
hmmm I am NOT BUYING the stuff your selling on that one ...
I personally like a little diversification, you can find what ya want and bring into a breeding or you can leave stuff out ..
its fairly easy within our system to find what ya want or find what ya want to stay away from depending on what ya use your dogs for or wish to use them for..
Apparrently you have found the perfect GSP for you pixie and they happen to fall into the DK catagory of style or type , thats great for you , but you need not feel the need to attempt to convert us AKC dog owners over to your thinking, if people want that type of system and control over themselves and other breeders they will join your system and leave the AKC dogs behind... Many dogs and breeders in the AKC go above and beyond what the DKV requires for breeding rights of a dog, people can simply only buy from breeders who meet their requirements in the good ole USA or they can choose not to ...its America people have the right in this country to choose their breeder and choose what types of testing a breeding must pass before they buy or dont buy from a breeding ..
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My Pups:
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dylandarling
craryville ny
MH
Posts:75
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| 01/23/2011 10:17 AM |
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| can I just say,..most people that buy from BYB are just looking at the price..with NO clue or care about health or temperament... many people that buy from Puppy mills are people who no decent breeder would sell them a dog...we have a lab BREEDER in our practice that has been breeding dogs with CRAP hips.with a great website!!I feel bad for the puppies BUT not for the people who buy them at $1200+.. sooo stupid when all they have to do is look up OFA.. I tell all our clients looking for puppies to do the research..no excuse for stupidity...LOL..and ..maybe there should be requirements to be able to allow the dogs to compete to become titled and bred..doesn't Germany have a strict system? |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7926
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| 01/23/2011 10:40 AM |
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| There is no system made that will prevent backyard breeders and/or puppy mills. As long as there is a market and people buy dogs from them there will be puppy mills and backyard breeders. There are laws on the books today to address puppy mills, but they are often not enforced. As for many backyard breeders the issue is education and the belief that they will make money breeding, or they just want to show their kids the wonders of birth, or they want another dog like the one they have now, etc. Reputable breeders in the US may not have a formal system like the German's use, but they do have health tests done, keep up with their breeding lines, put titles or test their dogs, and worry about the right time to breed and the frequency in which they breed a bitch, etc. In many ways, they are no different than breeders in other countries except that we do not have a formal testing program. So a reputable breeder whether breeding FT dog, Conformation, DC or something in between exists. I also spend allot of time on the phone with people that call looking for pups even though I may not have any available. I take that time to educate puppy buyers. Most want to do the right thing, many do not know what that is though. Of course, there are always a few bad apples in mix too. So again it is important for puppy buyers to to their homework and interview their prospective breeders and vice versa. I would say that is also true in other countries too whether their is a testing system or not. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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dylandarling
craryville ny
MH
Posts:75
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| 01/23/2011 10:44 AM |
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| thats my pet perk...EDUCATION!! |
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gsp-fan
AZ
MH
Posts:353
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| 01/23/2011 11:24 AM |
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can I just say,..most people that buy from BYB are just looking at the price..with NO clue or care about health or temperament...
A statement like this just gets me going - read my story below:
When we decided on a GSP we did quite a bit of research and study before even contacting breeders. We talked to quite a few and they would not sell to us because we did not hunt or do FT or show. I was actually hung up on by a couple breeders. We wanted a health, good temperament dog. We are not new to owning hunting dogs just pointers. Some breeders are good at talking a good game. Our GSP is not your typical dog - he has issues. So far health wise he is fine - he is 6. With the help of trainers (bird dog) we have resolved some of his issues but not all. We also own a EP and both pointers are fully trained to hunt but we do not go out and officially hunt with them. I keep their minds/bodies sharp by play hunting everyday. I not only encourage feather but fur also hunting and have gone as far as getting birds & other creatures for them. I am dedicated to my GSP for the rest of his life and will not throw him away because of these issues.
When you talk about education there also needs to be education on the breeders end that not all pet homes are evil. I have seen quite a few breeders on here with the statement "I will never sell to a pet home" well you know what you are missing out on homes like mine. We are just as dedicated to your dogs as you are.
GSP breeders are fully aware of who is breeding low end dogs and taking advantage of people yet they are unwilling to step forward or confront these breeders.
What about good breeders that have a litter then when some of the pups do not have what the breeder thinks they should dump them in a shelter? There are more out there than you think.
I will get off of my pet home soap box.
Rebecca |
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RyanGSP
MH
Posts:446
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| 01/23/2011 11:31 AM |
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With the time and effort put into some fo the breeding of these dogs I wouldnt put them into a pet home either.
Trials dogs for exmaple are going to be bred too "hot" for your average hunter or pet home. There for your going to end up with someone unhappy with the puppy they got.
I also have one more question. How do you keep your dog ready to hunt without actually hunting? Just because you can drive good doesnt mean you can go out and compete in nascar. Same principal just because you think your dog can hunt doesnt mean it actually can. What is involved with this "Play hunting" every day?
I can honestly say if I were breeding a trial dog or even a hunting dog this right here would make me not want to sell a dog to you.
"fully trained to hunt but we do not go out and officially hunt with them. I keep their minds/bodies sharp by play hunting everyday."
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gsp-fan
AZ
MH
Posts:353
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| 01/23/2011 11:52 AM |
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You are right I did not say ever dog should go into a pet home - I said there are dogs that do not cut it in the FT world or show ring or hunting those are dogs that should be going to pet homes.
Are dogs have been trained and taken out by our trainer to hunt so I do know they can hunt but thanks for asking.
I plant birds or other furry things and I let my dogs go - maybe it is not hunting to you but it keeps their mind sharp and they have fun doing a job.
When we are walking in the field or just strolling in town they are on the hunt.
Why is it that you find it so hard to believe that a pet home is not as dedicated as hunting home to ensure a happy well trained sharp dog?
It is your right not to sell to me if you choose - I am trying to show people that not all pet homes are evil.
I do not want to get into your dog is a better hunter than mine - that was not the purpose of my post.
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gsp-fan
AZ
MH
Posts:353
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| 01/23/2011 11:58 AM |
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| One more thing - I know the ins/outs on what it takes for FT. My EP was being groomed to run the circuit until her accident. |
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RyanGSP
MH
Posts:446
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| 01/23/2011 12:00 PM |
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Im not in it for your dogs better than mine but without actually hunting a dog yourself you dont know its ready to hunt.
Planted birds in no way replicate the real thing. They have their place but proving hunting dogs is where they do not belong.
Im not saying all pet homes are evil. A hunting home is far more dedicated to keeping a dog in hunting shape than a pet home because the hunting home actually uses the dog for hunting. Its not just a pet that goes to someone elses place for some training. It is a home where the dog will be out in the field in the fall doing its job, doing what its been trained to do as well as being the family pet.
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RyanGSP
MH
Posts:446
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| 01/23/2011 12:02 PM |
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Posted By gsp-fan on 01/23/2011 11:58 AM
One more thing - I know the ins/outs on what it takes for FT. My EP was being groomed to run the circuit until her accident.
I didnt relize FT judges looked for pretty hair cuts when judging.
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7926
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| 01/23/2011 12:22 PM |
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| We should not discount pet homes. If every breeder waited for the perfect show or field home we would not have enough homes for all the wonderful shorthairs out there. I have also found that many pet homes are opportunities for breeders to get folks involved in hunting, showing, obedience, etc. My first and foremost requirement is a GOOD home for my puppies where my dogs will be happy. Because I breed for a combination of things hunting, conformation, obedience and family dogs (that is not in any particular order), my dogs fit well into a variety of homes. Do I want them to go to hunt, show, obedience, agility homes? Yes, but sometimes wonderful owners come along that discount all that. I had a young couple contact me for a puppy and they did not hunt, but they hiked and spent allot time outdoors and wanted a dog that would fit their lifestyle which was very active. The thing that drew them to me was they saw on my website that I hike in the same areas they do. So they called. As it happened I had one male puppy that I hadn't found just the right home for yet. He was very active and energetic, and needed a very active family. He also was very birdy and I really wanted to find a home that would develop that hunting ability in him. This couple had never even heard of hunt tests and field trials. They have now gone to a few and are planning on getting more involved in the hunting side and even going so far as to take up hunting. Now if I had put on my website only hunting or show homes or had told them only hunting or show homes, I would have missed a perfect home for my little energizer boy and they would never have had the discussions with me that got them interested in field work. That would have been a shame. So no, I don't rule out any potential home until after I have had a serious conversation with the potential buyer. I then work hard to match the puppy with the right home. After this last litter I now have 11 new families who have all stayed in contact with me and have sent me tons of pictures and emails about how my babies are doing. Of those homes, 4 are show homes, 5 are hunting homes, and 2 are pet homes. One of those pet homes is a ranch in Sabine, I wish I could be so lucky. I have also seen 5 of the 11 again over the Christmas holidays. In fact today, 3 of my puppies are coming for a visit. So, yes I am very pleased with my puppy homes including the pet homes, and as best I can tell all my puppy buyers are very happy with there new puppies. I even have one that is now on this forum. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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raven
Posts:11
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| 01/23/2011 1:07 PM |
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I have been watching this thread quietly until now. We started out as the family who wanted a 80 percent pet/20 percent hunting dog. We even bought a BLACK GSP to boot!!!! It is now 4 years later and we have FC AFC Wolf Plain Brooks Sally, MH. Amateur handled and amateur owned/trained. We also have Wolf Plain Brooks Tucker who is a little over two and was #5 derby dog in 2009. He only needs his retrieving points to be a FC. We have two others in the home Raven and Sky. These dogs compete in horseback trials mostly as well as a few walking trials. They all hunt grouse and woodcock as well. I think a smart dog and well-bred dog can adjust its RUN to its handler/situation. 
We were well educated on the energy level and were told what to expect, therefore we were not surprised. So in short there are great pet homes for these dogs just a matter of screening and really educating people. We had no plans on doing hunt tests and field trials. Thankfully someone considered our active family who hiked and spent a majority of our time outside to own one of their puppies. It introduced us to a wonderful new activity/hobby (addiction). FT bred dogs can make great pets as long as they get the proper exercise and mental stimulation. Their family must be committed. We now have four dogs in the house that are FT bred. I believe it is truly how they are trained and how the owner molds them to fit in their family. So not ALL pet homes should be discounted. |
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