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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4450
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| 05/14/2009 10:36 AM |
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I can state the reasons I want the color to be approved.
1) I would like to see the color under conformation judgment
2) if littermates who are L/W can compete in the ring the blacks should be allowed equal footing
3) the color is acknowledged by allowing registration in AKC and the GSPCA and the color is allowed to compete in other venues
4) several,if not many,L/W dogs have black in their lineage,within the first 3 generations
5) I do not know that the color is denied as being a true color of the breed,therefore why is it limited.
It's not so much,for me, that other registries allow the color, it's that the color is a true color and other countries have recognized this fact. Having the color omitted from the standard does not bring the breed, as a whole,together.
Will the color add to your breeding program? maybe not. On the same coin,there is nothing about the color that would not add to a breeding program. the dogs are not any better or worse due to their color. Aside from color the dogs have all the same atributes, the good, the bad and the ugly.
Francine |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7844
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escampbell
MH
Posts:213
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| 05/14/2009 10:07 PM |
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I guess I am surprised to hear that after all the many discusssions and articles that have been held on this forum and in Shorthair Journal over the years, not to mention the availibility of some excellent books, that some feel that those of us who favor inclusion of the black coat color in the breed ring have not provided any information. I think the breed history that has been provided on the GSP list these last couple of days has been outstanding. And previous GSP list discussions, while sometimes heated, have also provided excellent information and a good exchange of ideas.
Personally, I feel like all I did, every time I attended a nationals or a specialty back when my black and white Sydney (now approaching age 13) was younger, was answer questions. I tried (and try) to be polite and as informative as I can be. At least around here, my young Soleil, age 18-months, is no longer a novelty. However, I occasionally still get questions, which I continue to try to answer. I do the best job that I can of educating, one on one. I contribute to these forum discussions, too.
But while I continue to try to educate, I no longer try to constantly justify my position. I admit to becoming too defensive in the past. These days I just try to point out the following: the black color is not some new "fad color." It is a historically correct color. It is not a color that has been linked to any new potential health risks, beyond those already found in the breed as a whole. Black GSPs are behind many fine liver and white champion GSPs. There is no reason for the black color to be a DQ. DNA parentage testing, now required for any GSP except an ILP/PAL GSP attending the GSPCA nationals, should eliminate concerns that black GSPs are really crosses of some kind.
I also am not asking anyone include a black pigmented GSP in their breeding program unless they like the individual dog. No one's breeding program has to change at all. Nor am I asking anyone to like the color. I prefer the ticked GSPs over the solids, but I would never deny that the solids are anything but correctly patterned GSPs. All I and others are asking is that a correct GSP color - black - be removed from the list of breed ring "DQs" in AKC competition.
In the meantime, regardless of what happens, I will continue to enjoy my GSPs of both colors(and my Shelties - both sable and whites! ) and to train and compete with them.
Eleanor
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Eleanor Campbell
New Jersey
Sydney, Presto, Price, Ozma and Soleil |
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WildRose
Seymour Texas
MH
Posts:471
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| 05/14/2009 10:14 PM |
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Most of that makes good sense. However if littermates of black or liver pups have lemon or orange, markings, or white on their nose they are still going to be disqualified.
There is no logical reason however to deny blacks full participation.
Francine are you a member of the GSPCA? Do you participate in any AKC or GSPCA events?
If you aren't a member you have no vote and voting is the only way to make an opinion matter to the GSPCA board.
Remmber DK is just German for "short hair" and thus you are permitted membership in the GSPCA.
Join, vote, and make your opinion count. |
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There's a reason I like dogs better'n people... . |
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Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:731
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| 05/14/2009 10:28 PM |
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Well said Eleanor. I tried to find a copy of the flyer that was made up for the Journal last year, that I believe pretty well covered ALL of the misconceptions and ill formed opinions of the Black coloration, but can't figure out in which of the 1000 folders on my puter it is in!
Absolutely Charlie! Anyone that has an opinion on the topic, or for that matter; anything that has to do with the health, welfare and improvement of the Breed, SHOULD JOIN the GSPCA and make their voices heard!
I believe that was one of the big reasons
L.D.
made it onto the Clubs "Health & Welfare" radar and I have to believe the big push came from a discussion that many of us were having over on GDF concerning the topic. |
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Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
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Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:731
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| 05/14/2009 10:29 PM |
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Now for the big question to those that are opposed and I too don't want to hear rhetoric:
WHY NOT REMOVE THE DQ ON BLACK? |
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Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
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WildRose
Seymour Texas
MH
Posts:471
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| 05/15/2009 4:32 AM |
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Posted By Almost Heaven GSP on 05/14/2009 10:29 PM
Now for the big question to those that are opposed and I too don't want to hear rhetoric:
WHY NOT REMOVE THE DQ ON BLACK?
Someone mentioned that the reason it failed wasn't just due to folks on the show side, but because lots of people who's primary or only interest on the field side oppose it as well.
I've never known anyone on the field side to object to blacks getting full recognition and I can't think of any logical reason we would.
What have I missed?
If anyone thinks that it opens the door to sneaking in black pointers under the table DNA takes care of that very quickly. Just require DNA for all breeding stock, starting tomorrow. |
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There's a reason I like dogs better'n people... . |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4450
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| 05/15/2009 5:51 AM |
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I was a member of the GSPCA for 2 years. I voted once on the color issue. I did not feel as tho I was accepted being I had a DK. Some people didn't care but when I was introduced as a 'woman with a new breed' I for sure felt I was in the wrong place. Since my main focus is versatile venues,and that takes a lot of time,money and effort, we decided to narrow our spending,not spead our selves to thin and stick with clubs who recognized our dogs. I have not registered my b/w puppy with AKC. I feel AKC has nothing to offer me. I will have conformation ratings from the German system.
Francine |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:731
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| 05/15/2009 7:14 AM |
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I know a few Charlie, not many though and they feel we will be going backwards in Breed development here in the States due to the Blacks of today being not very far disconnected from their German Heritage. They often cite the GSP's of the 50's, 60's and 70's that tended to be much more aggressive/sharp and typically were plodders.
WOW! Where was that at Pixie?
I'm really sorry to hear that you were made to feel as though you were being belittled. I believe I can say that those people DO NOT represent the Majority of the GSPCA Members.
As for Registering with the AKC: You don't have to Register your DK's with the AKC to take part in Membership with the GSPCA. I hope you would reconsider and not allow yourself to be disconnected from having a voice here in the States. By allowing them to push you out, you allowed them to do exactly what they may likely have wanted, to remove you from a right to speak out. |
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Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
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Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:731
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| 05/15/2009 7:18 AM |
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| On a side note Charlie, I would have to locate my notes from last years Vote, but the Majority of those that voted from the Regions in the West, Mid-West & NorthWest whose Clubs typically are heavily represented/made up of Trialers, voted in favor of the change. Not so here in the East and East Central regions. |
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Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
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JstLovesGSPs
UP of Michigan
SH
Posts:47
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| 05/27/2009 6:20 PM |
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I'm new here and just flabbergasted that the Black color of the GSP is not an accepted color?! It was a color when the dog was developed in Germany... am I missing a key piece of information here?
I have owned three GSP's... a solid Liver spayed female that passed away at the age of 9. She was riddled with health problems - hereditary health problems and some not normally seen in GSP's.
I also have a solid Liver neutered male and just recently acquired a little bitch that is 15 weeks old and is black/patched/ticked/roaned and just gorgeous!
I love the diversity of the GSP colors... just can't imagine that the black is still not accepted or being accepted and totally can't understand why....would someone tell me why? |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7844
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| 05/27/2009 7:23 PM |
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JstLovesGSPs - There is a good article written by Patte Titus and posted on Bruce's website regarding the history of the Black/Black & White GSPs. I thought the link was in this thread, but couldn't find it so here is the link again.
www.almostheavengsps.netkennel.com/Content.asp
Also, if you go back and search the archives you will find other threads that cover this same topic. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
   
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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escampbell
MH
Posts:213
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| 05/27/2009 10:52 PM |
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When we speak about "accepted," we are talking about being accepted in the AKC breed ring only. Black pigmented GSPs are fully AKC registerable, can and do compete in all the AKC dog sports: field trials, hunt tests, obedience, agility, rally, tracking. Black pigmented GSPs are accepted in the UKC bred ring. They are allowed in the CKC breed ring, but the color is a serious fault.
So "not accepted" has a very narrow definition. The membership of the GSPCA has not yet voted to change the standard. 60% would like to allow the color, but we need 66.67%. I also reiterate that you can ony vote if you are a member of the GSPCA.
I suggest going over to the GSP list and reading all the great stuff posted about how the color came to be.
Eleanor in NJ
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Eleanor Campbell
New Jersey
Sydney, Presto, Price, Ozma and Soleil |
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RyanGSP
MH
Posts:430
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| 05/28/2009 6:59 AM |
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| I wouldnt call black a seriouse fault in the CKC breed ring. I believe there has been one or 2 black conformation champions. They wouldnt have gotten their CH title if it was that much of a fault |
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JstLovesGSPs
UP of Michigan
SH
Posts:47
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| 05/28/2009 10:11 AM |
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Great article - thank you! I'm familiar with showing and I do understand that the DQ is simply for showing the dog. It doesn't prevent the dogs from being bred.
I was just wondering - with such strong controversy - what are the objections to permitting the black dogs in the ring? I guess that was truly my question - there has to be something from a breeding standpoint that makes it undersirable - correct? |
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escampbell
MH
Posts:213
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| 05/28/2009 1:04 PM |
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RyanGSP: I should not have added the adjective "serious" to the word "fault" in describing how the color is viewed in the CKC standard, but indeed black is considered a fault, serious enough to be referenced twice. Under "colour" it is specifically stated that liver or liver and white, etc. is the only acceptable color. Under "faults," black is listed along with several other faults like cowhocks, etc. The impression is clearly that a black pigmented GSP is not desirable in the show ring. But they cannot be kicked out, as they must be in AKC shows.
And you are right, there have been black Canadian show champions, or at least one. "Izzy" owned by Jennifer Howling, finished back in the late 90's, early 2000's. There may be others.
JstLovesGSPs: Rather than even attempt to summarize the many lengthy discussions which have appeared on the GSP list about black coat color, you should go to the GSP list and search the various threads. Recently, there was a huge discussion. Last year also.
I have attended many GSPCA National Specialty shows and my Sydney (black and white) has never been badly received. Her accomplishments speak for themselves and people have accepted her, if not her color. Other GSPCA members and I may disgree on this issue, but she and I have always felt "accepted." My young black and white has also run in field trials, puppy and Derby, and her color has scarcely been mentioned. The "wow" (what is that?) factor that Sydney elicited back when I first got her, has largely disappeared. Probably because many more black GSPs are around.
Eleanor in NJ
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Eleanor Campbell
New Jersey
Sydney, Presto, Price, Ozma and Soleil |
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TMerkler
Murfreesboro, TN
MH
Posts:217
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| 06/11/2009 9:38 AM |
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I am new to the site. I have a general question about the Black and White GSP's. I have a B/W and he is the second one for me. I tend to be partial to the B/W's. I have noticed that most b/w do NOT have their tails docked. Is this because of the issue with their color?
Thank you for any insight you can provide. |
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Terri (Dude's Mom 4ever)
Dude - GSP (RIP 2005)
Tyler - GSP
Charlie - GSP
Zeus - Pit-ador |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4450
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| 06/11/2009 9:43 AM |
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I have not noticed this.
Which registry are these dogs in? Are they imports? |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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TMerkler
Murfreesboro, TN
MH
Posts:217
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| 06/11/2009 11:09 AM |
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| Neither of my boys have been registered. They are both rescues w/o papers. But I have noticed that most, not all, but most of the Black and Whites I have seen have full tails. I was just wondering if breeders don't deal with the added expence to dock the tails of the B/W's because of the AKC's standards? Don't get me wrong I have seen litters that include B/W's with docked tails. But for the most part the adults I have seen have full tails. Just wondering. |
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Terri (Dude's Mom 4ever)
Dude - GSP (RIP 2005)
Tyler - GSP
Charlie - GSP
Zeus - Pit-ador |
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escampbell
MH
Posts:213
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| 06/16/2009 4:50 PM |
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No, all the purebred black and white, pedigreed GSPs I have seen in the USA have docked tails. Of course, tail docking has been banned in other countries like Great Britain, parts of Austrlaia, Scandanavia, so no GSPs born in those countries, regardless of color, wil have docked tails.
My two black and white girls both have docked tails. Their parents have docked tails, as do their siblings. My young girl's dam is from Wind River Kennels and Debbie docks the tial on all her dogs. She has all colors.
I help with GSP rescue in NJ and we do see a certain percentage of rescued dogs with undocked tails. But even the majority of rescues have docked tails.
Eleanor
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Eleanor Campbell
New Jersey
Sydney, Presto, Price, Ozma and Soleil |
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