|
| Author |
Messages |
|
Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7861
 |
| 01/15/2011 10:12 AM |
|
Briar - To be clear when I talk about a gallop in a dog I consider that to be the fastest gait (i.e. the run). I am using that term because that is what most dog structure experts use when discussing structure and gait (there is a good description of the dogs gait in Gilbert and Brown's book K9 Structure and Terminology). Heavier dogs use the single suspension gallop and dogs like the sighthounds will use the double suspension gallop. Dogs that use the double suspension cannot sustain the speed they achieve for long periods of time. So, dogs like a greyhound can get up to speed fast to catch their fast moving prey, but could not sustain those speeds for any length of time. The single suspension gallop is the endurance gallop. And the dog is only airborne once in a single suspension cycle. The single suspension gallopers also use their front and rear assemblies equally to propel themselves, but actually start the airborne cycle just after their left forefront foot hits the ground. I haven't mentioned the musculature or joints here, but they also plays a role in the dogs movement.
As the gallop applies to a hunting dog we are saying the same thing only using different terminology. I will, however, add that the dogs "run" is often adjusted based on terrain and the speed at which the hunter is moving. Most hunters could not even begin to keep up with a dog hunting on foot and the dog is smart enough to understand this and adjust accordingly. When most people talk about a FT they are talking about the horse back trials and not the walking trials. The dogs truly can move out and stay at a high speed because the hunters are on horseback. They also used spotters to help keep up with the dogs too. Terrain also plays a role in how the dog hunts. In a highly wooded area the dogs will slow down and work closer, but in a wide open range they don't have to slow at all. These dogs whether we are talking shorthairs or DKs are smart, and they know better than we do how to work a given field. That is why we use them after all to help us find and pin the birds. Are there some dogs better than others? Yes, just like people, dogs have talents too and a very talented and experienced bird dog in any terrain is a sight to behold. I am also partial in thinking that the shorthair or DK is the best of the best. |
|
Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
   
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
|
|
briarpatch
N.J.
MH
Posts:168
|
| 01/15/2011 10:55 AM |
|
Well one thing for sure is true wether they have run or dont and have a slightly different style or if they range 300 yards or 50 yards I never met a GSP/DK that didnt have some attribute that I personally liked and thought was a quality for some..
One persons qualities is anothers faults depending on what they normally use the dogs for and their normal terrain.
I never met a shorthair/DK i didnt like at least something about ...
|
|
My Pups:
   
|
|
|
pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
|
| 01/15/2011 12:01 PM |
|
I didn't say 150 yards.
I said 150'.
Yes, a Pointer was bred to hunt away from the gun. A DK,which is a GSP, was created to hunt under the gun.Ever wonder why they bred them to EPs? To be like Pointers. Higher speed,higher independence,which means a comprimise in cooperation, finer bone,more white and an overall less heat attracting dog than the DK/GSP.
Your rationalizations as to why you have unproductives,flushes and having to track down your dog are onlt 1/2 truth. Seeing 10 miles means nothing - you need binoculars - I don't carry binoculars on a hunt. How far can we see a dog on a clear day? A speck at 1mile?unless the dog can see you,hear you, he has no idea or concern where you are or what you are doing. He takes for granted you are following.These dogs were bred to be highly independent. You hunt with them, they lead 100% of the time.
He may hold point until you get there, however far that is you have to haul to him,but a dog that is 'honest' for 10+ minutes until you get there was taught to be and of not much use to me. How much fun is it to walk 10+ minutes to find nothing there? or to have a dog flush birds out of range? It takes me about 20 minutes to walk a mile.
My dogs have wild flushes within range, I will seldom walk for over 30 seconds to a dog on point and I have 0 non productives.
I didn't say anything about run-offs. I believe that these (the good ones) dogs are bred with cooperation and want to work for the hunter.
|
|
"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
|
|
|
RyanGSP
MH
Posts:431
|
| 01/15/2011 12:12 PM |
|
I always carry binoculars you never know when you need them. I use them to see those big alberta whitetails so I know when November comes around where they are.
Pixie you obviously have 0 experience over big running dogs. If you actually hunted over some GOOD ones you would know everything you posted above about them is untrue. A run off dog does not win trials and if he does this in the field it considered to be a good hunting dog. That dog also wouldnt be bred, that means thos traits wouldnt be passed on. Trying hunting over one and you would see.
I also call BS on 0 non productive points. Now your just blowing smoke up all our butts.
I would also doubt you have any sort of experience over wild huns. If you had you would know what I am talking about and how these birds change over a season.
Any good pheasant dog will be honest for 10 minutes and alot of them around here are self taught that way. Ever hunt a cattail slough like this, its pretty easy to loose a dog for 10 minutes or more. This is why we invested in beepers and am looking at tracking collars. Not because of the range but because in this stuff the only way your going to find them is if you stumble on them.
Pixie if you actually came out here on the prairies you would know exactly what I am talking about. Maybe its for the better your stay out east doing your guided pen hunts.
BTW here is some of the wide open we hunt. Easy to find a dog even at 3 or 4 hundred yards. BTW 4 birds were put down over this non productive point.
|
|
|
|
|
pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
|
|
RyanGSP
MH
Posts:431
|
| 01/15/2011 12:42 PM |
|
Your the only one argueing whos dog is better.
I find my deer in the same area. Watched my 150 from 2009 all during september and october. Shot him 1 mile from where I 1st seen him. |
|
|
|
|
pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
|
| 01/15/2011 12:50 PM |
|
Your the only one argueing whos dog is better.
You obviously don't recall your post a few pages ago. Your entire purpose is to prove yours are better than mine.
How about this Ryan - I admitt it, your dogs are better than mine. you see, I don't have to have the best dogs - all I want are dogs that are great companions,healthy and produce game while we have a fun time out in nature. I don't care if they are the fastest,slowest,have more points,less points.
I enjoy my dogs.
|
|
"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
|
|
|
briarpatch
N.J.
MH
Posts:168
|
| 01/15/2011 9:04 PM |
|
Both y'all have some nice country to hunt , and I am sure great dogs or y'all wouldnt be bickering over who's is better at what , but i still wanna go hunting in Bev's neck of the woods someday ...  |
|
My Pups:
|
|
|
pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
|
| 01/16/2011 8:37 AM |
|
Going faster than a gallop to hunt is inefficient and not done in the wild. Wolves will only go faster once the they are chasing.
Why is it desired for dogs to go faster - an all out run - and how long is the dog expected to keep up an all out run?
In the hunting section I posted 2 pictures of my dog doing a field search. He was keeping up this pace for about 45 minutes (we covered all the fields) in about 6" of snow.Is hunting faster than this more efficient?
Your neck of the woods is not all that different from my neck of the woods. I am in NY. If you want to go grouse and woodcock hunting next year, give me a ring, maybe we can get into some state released pheasants,too.
|
|
"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
|
|
|
RyanGSP
MH
Posts:431
|
| 01/16/2011 10:59 AM |
|
Posted By pixie bee on 01/16/2011 8:37 AM
Going faster than a gallop to hunt is inefficient and not done in the wild.
Says the woman who has never hunted over a good dog that hunts at a run.
Wolves also dont point. They track their game until they see it then use sight. If they held point they would all starve to death. |
|
|
|
|
briarpatch
N.J.
MH
Posts:168
|
| 01/16/2011 11:03 AM |
|
Thanks for the invite Pixie , I would love to try a couple of the hounds out on some grouse sometime there is none of those around here any more , they do well on woodcock and released Phez and quail and once in a blue moon any more some wild quail if ya get lucky enough to see a covy of wild ones they are getting rarer and rarer ..you would like the styles of all my dogs although some do have different styles in and of themselves , and i would love to see your dogs in the field someday.
The "run" or a dog with "run " is ment to be so and do so the entire hunt, the dog is not actually at its max compacity but it appears to the eye he/she is on a full bore to the limit run the entire hunt.
A dog with "run" can be everybit as effecient a hunter. Thats why I noted the difference between a field dog and a Field trial dog . A field trial dog is not ment to find the most birds as a meat hunters dog would , many a Field trialer would to refer to you or I as "meat hunters " As we are more concerned with finding the most birds in an area , where they generally are more concerned with "run" the "race" and the style the dog has to win field trials the dog must have the correct style moreso than finding the most birds in most cases .. There are dogs with "run" that are "meat hunters " and hunt the entire field with the "run" and the right style this would be considered a dog with "run" a field dog but not a really a Field Trial dog , could that dog do well in a foot field trial with the right judges yes it could. Can a FT dog find more birds on a given day than a meat hunters dog yes they can and do if the conditions are right for the correct style. Can a meat hunters dog find more birds on a given day yes they can and many times do depends on the terrain and the conditions and where the birds are holding up really..From my limited understanding of the FT a dog that finds 2 birds may very well win over a dog that finds 8 birds in the same field if the dog that found 2 birds did it with the preffered style. It a FT is not about who's dog finds the most birds..
I am not all that familiar with Field trials and dont pretend to know it all so if any field trial people wanna jump in and correct me please do so I have just picked up on some of the lingo through friends , and been learned a few things from friends and aquaintances I have ran my dogs with what could be considered FT dogs my first GSP Blade would have been a Field trialers dream dog ..
I am a "meat hunter" and an avid one and even though some field trialers say that ment in a derogatory way , I personally find it as a compliment ... |
|
My Pups:
|
|
|
pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
|
| 01/16/2011 11:42 AM |
|
The discussion is not about if wolves point. It is irrelevent.
Wolves are made for hunting. They want to conserve energy and nature dictates that hunting full bore is not effecient. They will cover ground/hunt at a trot, then gallop then break to run for sprints when the chase begins. They will follow their prey for many miles, but no faster than a gallop. Energy wise, it is not effecient.
briarpatch,
I really didn't understand much of what you posted about run.
Why is it important to run full bore for an hour or more, what does it show about a dog?
I am under the impression that even sighthounds can not/do not run at full bore other than sprinting and they are engineered for running. How does a pointer manage this speed for long periods?
If a full out run is desired in a bird dog, then my dogs do not have this. They naturally hunt (search) at a gallop and no faster. It's their pace.
|
|
"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
|
|
|
RyanGSP
MH
Posts:431
|
| 01/16/2011 12:49 PM |
|
Maybe you should reread what he said in there. He said the dog DONT run at full bore it only looks like they are running at full bore.
At does it achieve when a dog runs fast they cover more ground. More ground covered = greater chances of contacts with game. |
|
|
|
|
RyanGSP
MH
Posts:431
|
| 01/16/2011 12:54 PM |
|
I should mention though before you go saying they will bump birds this way is a dog can only run as fast as his nose and as good as the scenting conditions.
If you have poor scenting conditions then a dog should know to slow down to adjust. If you have good scenting conditions (light wind, not too hot, higher atmospheric pressure, good humidity) a dog with a good nose should be able to move at a good pace and not outrun his sniffer. |
|
|
|
|
pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
|
| 01/16/2011 1:30 PM |
|
First it was said the dog is at full bore, then texasBelle posted, then it was posted that the dog is not at full bore but looks that way.
What gait are Ryan and briarpatch referring to?
|
|
"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
|
|
|
Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7861
|
| 01/16/2011 5:11 PM |
|
| As I said in my previous post they are probably galloping, but adjusting speed based on the terrain, cover, and the speed the hunter is moving at whether on horse or foot. I believe what the FT folks look for is covering ground quickly and hunting the appropriate cover and not wasting any time and always staying out in front. I am guessing we are all probably describing similar things in their gait, and the issue is in how we describe what we are seeing. I have never seen a dog in a FT that had turned on his after burners to cover the ground with the exception of when they first start out and are excited. The dogs do move out and cover ground, and then settle into a sustainable gallop. Frankly they could not sustain an all out gallop with after burners on for very long. No dog can. |
|
Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
|
|
briarpatch
N.J.
MH
Posts:168
|
| 01/17/2011 4:35 AM |
|
Like I said its kinda hard to put into words , ya kinda got to see it and have someone point it out who is familiar with it and then see a dog considered without it ..hunt with a FT guy/Gal once who has a dog with "run" and they can point it out and then you will know what it is , I really dont know how to describe the gait other than FAST
|
|
My Pups:
|
|
|
trueblushorthairs
MH
Posts:129
|
| 01/17/2011 8:14 AM |
|
I think the problem here is that those of us who hunt and live in areas that require dogs to cover a lot of ground at speed, who hunt from 4 wheelers, trucks, etc. on leases that are anywhere from 5000 to 1250000 acres tend to think of NE dogs being underfoot and in comparison are. Then, those who hunt grouse in New England tend to believe our dogs are run off lunatics who we turn loose and hope we find at the end of the day. I flat don't know about dogs in the north. But, the idea that we are out searching for these long lost run offs is ridiculous. Yes, we use Trackers, GPS, etc. But, most often the dogs are 300 yards to 1/4 mile and are hunting at speed the likely potentially bird holding objectives. We may sing to them, we may utilize the GPS or Tracker on occasion to pin point the dogs' location but 95% of the time we are purely letting them take US to birds. We don't use whistles and guide them around like chess pieces, they learn, through experience, where to hunt and they go do it.
To answer the out of range flush question. Very few, they learn to hunt, find birds, pin them, hold them until we walk, ride, or drive to their point. For our uses, a dog that is in gun range is useless.
Further, it was said that the DK was bred to hunt under the gun, and that a DK is a GSP. Those of us who have had GSPs for the better part of 50 years did not breed them to pointers for run or range or speed. We had dogs in the late 50s and 60s that covered plenty of ground. Far from the 50 yard dogs that seem to be what some view were the origins of the breed. These were not trial dogs but dogs bred to hunt the country and go find birds. NOT pointer crosses in any way shape or form, but dogs that through genetics were independent and could hunt at speed. I do enjoy those who always fall back on the "origins of the breed" when they own dogs that are porch sweepers and they need something to use as ammunition for their dogs lack of independence or their own training paranoia, and yes, sometimes their actual need for an extemely close worker. Why not just buy a cocker? At the same time, I will never understand why many fall back to the "you don't understand our need for a close worker" and at the same time don't understand that some of us need and want dogs with independence who range and GO FIND BIRDS. |
|
|
|
|
pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
|
| 01/17/2011 9:43 AM |
|
No one said a 50 yarder is the origin of the breed. That is your interpretation of what was said. The DK is a dog with a big range -
they are expected to hunt under the gun -not all hunting is foot hunting for the DK. They are not staying under the gun when they are boar hunting or on an independent search on land or water.
Not sure whos dog you are calling a porch sweeper. Not appreciated if you are referring to mine. My dogs hunt the land and game available. Assuming a dog would not adjust to more open terrain is not based on fact. Working for the hunter is not an indication of lack of independence or rationalizations. Altho, that can works both ways,now,don't it?
Love the idea that only dogs with extreme range,extreme independence can go and find birds. You wouldn't be falling back on any rationalizations now, would you?
You usually post interesting and informative info -I said usually.
Francine
|
|
"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
|
|
|
trueblushorthairs
MH
Posts:129
|
| 01/17/2011 10:12 AM |
|
Pixie, Basically, every bit of what you have said contradicts our type of hunting. Maybe I don't understand what you mean by "under the gun". I take that to mean within 100 feet or so. You did say that the dogs lead 100% of the time. They do lead most of the time, but will key off of us, the horse's head, the direction, the direction of the Mule or 4 wheeler, etc. We don't chase them all over the 100000 acres by any means. But, we do expect them to take us to birds. In our area, I can't imagine having a dog that hunted at 100 yards muchless 100 feet. Further, if one believes that a 100' dog is gonna stretch to 500 yards if the country dictates is in La-La Land as far as I'm concerned. Be assured, I wouldn't expect mine to shorten to 100' in the north either.
A dog that is honest for 10 minutes is an excellent cooperative dog in this part of the country and is needed for our type of hunting. Just remember, your dogs may be perfect for you, but for us, a 100' dog will seldom, if ever, find wild bobs. further, many of us hunt wild birds with dead broke dogs, that will hold however long it takes for us to get there. I am far too old and far too fat to walk to the places these dogs hunt. I rely on their experience to go find birds for us.
Our dogs seldom have non-productives on wild birds. Cover is sparse with patches of thick. They may run to cover but then most often hold tight then erupt like a hand grenade going off. Once they stick, they usually stay. If they run, the dogs have learned to track and pin them. They know how close to get to keep them from flushing.
By the way, I didn't quote you or anyone on this site with the "origins of the breed" comment, but I've seen this comment far too many times on far too many sites. Also didn't call your dogs anything including porch sweepers. Don't take comment so personally, I only quoted your "under the gun" comment but nowhere in my post did I name you personally. Not meant as an attack. I don't know your dogs so it would be impossible to comment on them specifically. I do know that many who have never hunted Idaho, or west Texas, or western OK, or south Texas, or ever been to a trial in this part of the US tend to post comments about our dogs and events based on no actual personal experience. NO, not you!! |
|
|
|
|
|
| You are not authorized to post a reply. |
|
|
|
ActiveForums 3.7
|
You must be logged in to use this module.
|