Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7864
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| 01/14/2011 8:44 AM |
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| Briar - I used to have greyhounds and my grandfather bred and raised them for years. First and foremost, they are big dogs and they outweigh our GSPs as a rule (females in the 5o lb range and up and males 75 lb range and up). They also are made for running and actually have a different gait and build than the GSP. Their back is also elongated which allows them to run and be able to arch their back as part of their running movement. This gives them the incredible speeds that they can get up to. We used to take my grandfathers greyhounds out on the desert in AZ and let them run. They were a sight to behold. Beautiful animals. All that said they cannot maintain their very high speed over a long distance, but they can and do have endurance at a more moderate gallop. If you look at any sight hound you will see the structure made for running and the enormous lung capacity as well and their streamlined build. Good discussions of their structure can be found in K9 Structure and Terminology by Gilbert and Brown. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
   
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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briarpatch
N.J.
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Posts:168
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7864
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| 01/14/2011 8:48 AM |
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| I agree with Snips completely size is relative and it is the entire package that makes the dog. Good breeding for soundness (structure + everything else) will trump all in the end. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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briarpatch
N.J.
MH
Posts:168
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| 01/14/2011 8:58 AM |
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The dogs given in examples are the average sized dog for that particular venue , or are they one that has crossed some of the average or normal type and style boundries due to breeding???
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My Pups:
   
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7864
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| 01/14/2011 9:51 AM |
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I have not attended an enormous amount of FTs, but I have been to quite a few in TX and the dogs I see there are indeed for the most part within the GSP Standard. So, I think it is important to post that Size standard again and understand size, bone, and weight in context with that standard. Note the statement about bone in proportion to size toward the end of the standard. I would also add that the shorthairs I have seen in the breed ring in shows in the TX area are also largely within the standard too. In fact, I would wager that our standard is generous enough in size to accommodate what the FT folks want in a dog as well as what we see in the show ring. I do think that many show folks do not condition their dogs as well as the FTs folks do and I also think they show them on the heavy side in many cases. I personnally prefer a lean and mean shorthair. Now whether or not a judge would put up all of the dogs in question, well if you get to the right judge maybe. Again, it is interpretation and some judges are great shorthair judges and some are not. Allot too depends on the handler and how the dog is handled in the ring. I know because I have lost because of handling errors often enough. I imagine the same can also be said of handling in FTs too. In any case I do not think that there are that many dogs competing in any of the performance events or the breed ring that are truly outside of our standard.
"Size--height of dogs, measured at the withers, 23 to 25 inches. Height of bitches, measured at the withers, 21 to 23 inches. Deviations of one inch above or below the described heights are to be severely penalized. Weight of dogs 55 to 70 pounds. Weight of bitches 45 to 60 pounds. Proportion--measuring from the forechest to the rearmost projection of the rump and from the withers to the ground, the Shorthair is permissibly either square or slightly longer than he is tall. Substance--thin and fine bones are by no means desirable in a dog which must possess strength and be able to work over any type of terrain. The main importance is not laid so much on the size of bone, but rather on the bone being in proper proportion to the body. Bone structure too heavy or too light is a fault. Tall and leggy dogs, dogs which are ponderous because of excess substance, doggy bitches, and bitchy dogs are to be faulted." |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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RyanGSP
MH
Posts:432
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| 01/14/2011 12:30 PM |
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Posted By CathyYak on 01/14/2011 5:32 AM
Posted By pixie bee on 01/13/2011 6:44 PM
Ryan,
supply facts. I've asked and have not gotten any answers.
Francine,
Haven't you noticed? Ryan just likes to beat up girls. He is perfectly polite to the boys even when they are not polite to him. You are wasting your time. There is no teachable moment with these guys. They are just looking to amuse themselves arguing. I dare any one of them to say any of this garbage on the GSP-l.
Yes poor poor Cathy. If you would pay attention the people in this thread that run trials and consistantly place are saying the same as I. Lighter built smaller dogs. |
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trueblushorthairs
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Posts:129
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| 01/14/2011 2:34 PM |
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Ryan, smaller and lighter than what, Cathy's dog, probably true to an extent. But, how big and heavy are her dogs? If you noticed, I posted that most males, who are winning on the national level are far from small, short, or light boned. Most are big strong dogs 55-65, sometimes 70 pounds, heavily muscled, not little slight dogs. The only slight dogs we see sometimes win in weekend AKC stakes, but not at the national level where the dogs go an hour. Those dogs shut down and can't go for that time in most all cases.
Maybe I'm off, but I do trial, I do run championships and nationals, GSPCA and NGSPA, regions, species, and I don't consider a 60 pound male a small dog. |
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pixie bee
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Posts:4452
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| 01/14/2011 5:06 PM |
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Some interesting posts today.
I don't know if it's correct to say DK breeders don't breed for run. By run do you mean range? There are DKs, and they are not the exception, that will hunt 'big'.
the DK, tho, is evaluated on it's cooperation and staying within gun range the majority of the hunt. What they are evaluated on tho, is not necessarily what they are fully capable of. DK breeders produce different styles of hunters and all dogs who will pass tests will need to perform within the rules of the tests. This is a value to the hunter. This produces a dog who is capable of hunting the way a hunter chooses any given day of the week and not on how a dog was bred(preprogrammed). Much of what I hear from field trial breeders. I dog who adjusts without hacking is a well bred dog.
Wow Bev, that's a lot of walking. You must have a strong heart and great legs.LOL
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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RyanGSP
MH
Posts:432
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| 01/14/2011 7:20 PM |
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| A pointer that stay within gun range is a useless pointer. You may as well hunt over a lab. Pointers are meant to get outside gun range thats the whole idea of pointing. |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7864
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| 01/14/2011 8:25 PM |
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The dogs that trublue is describing are similar in size to what I have seen as well at the local level. It should also be noted that they are smack dab in the middle of the standard.
As for what pixie is saying with regard to gun range. I am guessing that allot of that is a dog that adjusts to the terrain. I have seen my dogs adjust to terrain from the wooded forest where they tend to stay closer to running big in a wide open TX range. That too is what the breed is supposed to do.
Pixie - Yes that is allot of walking, but the views are spectacular and it's about as close to heaven as you can get on earth when you stand at the pass on a 14,000 foot peak.
View from Cinnamon Pass which is almost 14,000 feet.
Above Cataract Falls at about 12,000 feet near Lake City, CO.
And Belle and Halo on the other side of a valley at about 10,000 feet at a full gallop going up the side of the mountain (taken with a 70 - 300 mm zoom lens).
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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briarpatch
N.J.
MH
Posts:168
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| 01/14/2011 8:44 PM |
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Ryan my question would be these dogs at the nationals you are describing although obviously within the standard are they as large or heavy boned on the norm as the average show dog ?
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My Pups:
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7864
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| 01/14/2011 8:51 PM |
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| Ryan - Post some pictures of the dogs you are describing. I would like to see what you are talking about. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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briarpatch
N.J.
MH
Posts:168
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7864
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| 01/14/2011 9:42 PM |
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| Briar - As I said, as close to heaven as we can get on Earth. It is a hard hike to get to some of these places, but well worth the effort. My dogs love hiking the high country. I try to go at least once a year up to CO and take all the pups along. It is a treat for all of us. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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briarpatch
N.J.
MH
Posts:168
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 01/15/2011 7:30 AM |
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Bev, awesome pictures. I sure do envy you.
briarpatch,
that's what I thought run is. DKs are definitely bred for run. They MUST hunt in gallop or they will not recieve a 4,possibly a 1 or 2 in search.
A pointer that stay within gun range is a useless pointer. You may as well hunt over a lab. Pointers are meant to get outside gun range thats the whole idea of pointing.
Gun range is 100-150'. that's not all that close. It allows for the dog to pick up queues from the hunter and search an area thoroughly. It is OK for a DK to hunt out of range during a test. It better hold point tho, use its nose and do a thorough search of each area.This same breed is expected to range far out of sight in search of boar. This is not a breed that are bootlickers. Different expectations for different aspects of the hunt. The whole idea of pointing is not range, the idea of pointing is to hold game.
Labs are expected to hunt within 30'.Their close range allows for flushing. Few birds will be flushed out of gun range.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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CathyYak
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Posts:963
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| 01/15/2011 7:39 AM |
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What some people may not be taking into consideration is that not everyone hunts on a prairie, I hunt in NY and PA for the most part. Woods with fields in between, or fields separated by hedgerows. The moajority of the fields where I go are not even close to 150 yards across. If my dog ranged father than 150 yards he would be out of my sight in most cases. A dog that hunts out of my sight is of no use to me. I cannot abide beeper collars, and I cannot afford $600 for a tracker to follow my dog on a hand held screen.
So for me, a dog that stays within my sight for the most part when hunting is what I want. I do let them range bigger when we come across the odd really large field of course. I like to hunt with my dog not FOR my dog. But I know that is not the case for others. Especially the high tech hunters. |
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Cathy Iacopelli
Claddagh Kennels
Long Island, New York |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 01/15/2011 7:57 AM |
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There is no way where I hunt that a grouse will hold 300' away while I approach to investigate. My dogs are conditioned to hunt the way we hunt for the game we hunt.
Could they adjust to the prairies - I see no reason why not. I still wouldn't want to follow my dog with GPS or have them out of hearing range. What if I chose to change direction or whatever, how would I get the dog's attention? How long would I have to wait for the dog to notice I have stopped following him?
Ryan,
I didn't get any answers yet. How much of your time spent hunting is waiting for your dog to return, how many unproductive points do you have and how many out of range flushes do you have?
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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briarpatch
N.J.
MH
Posts:168
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| 01/15/2011 9:07 AM |
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Pixie not to try to correct you but a Gallop is not a run and a dog that gallops would be considered a dog with "no run"
to attempt to explain it better a dog with "run' just incase you or someone else didnt understand
when they say a dog has "run" he/she looks as though he/she is running full speed all the tiime.
a dog that gallops or looks like they gallop most of the time and then opens up to full speed once in awhile would considered a dog with "no Run " Thats not to say there arent DK breeders that have dogs with "run" there are. and not to say dogs without "run" dont cover almost the same amount of ground, but they look less like they are on a full flat out haul butt run though doing it. A dog with "run" looks like he/she is at full speed all the time and never or very very rarely looks as though he/she has slowed to a gallop, like i said its very hard to explain in writing its better to see it and have someone point out that dog has" run" and that dog has "no run" are they both running yes but they give a different appearance when doing it , one with run looks like its running as fast as it possibly can at its max speed all the time its on the field. Its just the style of its run ..wether or not it would be considered a dog with Run or not . its very hard to attempt to explain in writing ..hope i havent hacked it up to badly
Cathy I am with you on that one I live in NJ in a similar area if a dogs normal range was 150 yards or more it would not be hunting with you it would be hunting for another group of hunters at the other side of the field in most instances. I do use them high tech gadgits and I bought the GSP tracker last year and let me tell ya that GPS tracker is one of the best things you can buy your dog . Really a great device. You simply cant loose track of a dog in the thick woods or high fields with that on his/her neck. (well unless the batteries die) Very worth every penny.
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RyanGSP
MH
Posts:432
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| 01/15/2011 10:03 AM |
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Pixie you posted 2 totally contradicting things. FIrst you say your dog hunts inside gun range and now you say he is a 150 yard dog. Which is it.
A pointer is ameant to hunt outside gun range. Im not saying it is meant to hunt at 300 yards but it isnt meant to hunt under a gun.
Unproductive points all depends on the time of year, hunting pressure, and species. Generally with huns at the beginning most if not all points produce game. As the season progresses and pressure increases usually birds will run so we have to urge dogs on or 2 more times until the birds finally hold. We do have busts as is expected with some birds that just dont want to hold.
I dont go looking for my dog or wait fore them to come back. This is Alberta we can see 10 miles in all directions.
Our dogs check back with us usually they turn their head and look or I whistle to get their attention. Then use my arms to change direction. If they are close I just change direction and they know. You should really go out to a horseback trial and watch Pixie. You would see they are not run offs and turn with you easily. |
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