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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4473
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| 01/13/2011 5:21 AM |
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CL66,
both my dogs have passed their breeding tests. These tests require hunting, conformation ,
temperment and hip passes.
Both my dogs recieved a rating of SG, which means Very Good. They would probably do well in a show ring. They have been rated as having correct front and rear movement.
I don't think there can be a perfect TYPE. There are no perfect dogs. Even the 'most perfect' dog will have shortcomings. Don't ever let anyone convince you differently. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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CathyYak
MH
Posts:963
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| 01/13/2011 5:38 AM |
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Showing dogs is one of the venues I enjoy yes. But not the only one. That said, I will repeat, there is no DQ for size in the USA GSP standard. And I am fairly literate, no need to explain the me what DQ means. I find it disturbing that some people here keep referring to the standard without apparently having read it, at least not completely. And I find it much more disturbing that people who admittedly do not go to dog shows are making broad negative statements about MOST show dogs. I find that "most" of anything whether it be dogs, boy scouts or astronauts are not as similar as some here claim show dogs are.
And there is a hell of a difference between not being disqualified and obtaining a championship. The standard (so y'all don't have to break down and read it) calls for males to be 23-25 inches with an inch over or under being severley penalized. However if the 26 inch dogs is beautifully conformed with a smooth, flowing gait and correct temperamentand the others in the ring far from it, then the 26 inch dog deserves to win. So a 26 inch dog can become a champion, but it must be exceptional in all other attributes (or have an expensive handler and crooked judges). Did any of you ever see Britannia the DC? She was quite tall. It didn't stop her from becoming a DC.
I do find that in certain areas of the country you can see general size trends. Where I live an oversized dog is usually apparent. Doesn't mean it doesn't win sometimes. But it will never be DQ'd.
An no Francine,it is obvious that they did not read the info on the link I provided as they are still using the terminology of type and style incorrectly as it relates to dogs. What I have learned in this thread is that you can lead a horse to water.... |
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Cathy Iacopelli
Claddagh Kennels
Long Island, New York |
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briarpatch
N.J.
MH
Posts:168
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| 01/13/2011 5:42 AM |
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...
We have gotten far from the original topic with Types and such but its been a very interesting chat ..
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My Pups:
   
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CathyYak
MH
Posts:963
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| 01/13/2011 5:47 AM |
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You are right there Francine, there is no such thing as a perfect dog. They all have things that could be improved to adhere to the standard. Every breeding we do is aimed at "building a better mouse trap". But gain a little here, lose a little there is more the norm.
Your dogs look very nice in the photos. There is nothing stopping you from testing the liver one in the ring so that you can "put your money where you mouth is" so to speak. Breeding tests are like hunting tests, they tell you that your dog has passed the minimum qualifications for a rating or a title. But competiton against other dogs paints a better picture. And you could show the black one in UKC shows. I know a few people with black and white UKC champions.
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Cathy Iacopelli
Claddagh Kennels
Long Island, New York |
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briarpatch
N.J.
MH
Posts:168
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| 01/13/2011 5:47 AM |
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True okay you gals are right there is only one type
the FT trial dogs are just the same as the DK and the Show dogs are just the same as the FT dogs and the DK ...
I must of been mistaken all GSPs are exactly the same in type and style ...
DUH stupid me |
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My Pups:
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briarpatch
N.J.
MH
Posts:168
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| 01/13/2011 5:49 AM |
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as said before its been interesting if nothing else ...oh and i didnt say I never been to a show I said I dont show my dogs ..
;-) hope yall have a great day |
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My Pups:
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briarpatch
N.J.
MH
Posts:168
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| 01/13/2011 5:56 AM |
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| oh yeah and if you would like to see the DK or FCI standard or the AKC standard they are both on my website I am very familiar with them both ... |
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My Pups:
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CathyYak
MH
Posts:963
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| 01/13/2011 5:57 AM |
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OK, let me see if I can explain it so you all get it. In dog world terminology, "TYPE" is what makes a dog's breed recognizable instantly. It has nothing to do with what the dog excells at, field or show. If you look at a dog and instantly know, that is a GSP not a pointer pointer or a coon hound or any other breed, then it is said to be "typey" or have type. Type is higly valued by show breeders. Field breeders don't seem to care as much. I have judges compliment me regularly on my dogs being so typey the liver roan ones). I am proud when they do. Look at how many dogs at field events look like they could have pointer in them. Liver and white (or some other color) with little ticking. Wrong size, wrong heads, wrong outline, or mostly white. There are also show dogs that are lacking in type as well. If they are not immediately recognized as purebred GSPs by people who look at them who know what a GSP is, then they are not typey dogs.
It is a case of using general language instead of dog world language. Like bitch means something entirely different at a dog show than at a ball game. |
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Cathy Iacopelli
Claddagh Kennels
Long Island, New York |
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CathyYak
MH
Posts:963
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| 01/13/2011 6:09 AM |
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I said people who "admittedly" do not go to dog shows. If you did not admit to NOT GOING TO DOG SHOWS, then I was not referring to you. There are actually a few other people contributing to this thread. A big problem here is people not reading but instead reading into.
And if you are so familiar with the standard, then why would you go after me so rudely for making an absolute 100% correct statement about it?
"Cathy you being a show person should know the meaning of DQ it means Dis Qualified ..
"
Again, there is no height DQ in the USA AKC GSP Standard.
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Cathy Iacopelli
Claddagh Kennels
Long Island, New York |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4473
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| 01/13/2011 6:51 AM |
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Cathy,
I'm not the competitive type. Shows are not for me. Beauty contests are not as informative as they appear.The best at the time does not tell me anything about my dog - even if my dog was picked. The ratings I have recieved on my dogs have been by some of the most experienced, knowledgable and long standing judges in the German system.
I put my money where my mouth is by recieving the rating I have in the German system.
I don't go to AKC shows, I do attend NADKC zuchtschuas tho.
What I like in phenotype does not translate to say other dogs are not within their countries standards nor that they are not of TYPE.
This is about STYLE and not TYPE.
If I could consistently find what I liked in an AKC GSP I would still be with AKC dogs.
The rift between field and show sends me elswhere.
It has been a nice /debte/conversation and thanks to all who have participated - I have enjoyed this thread.
Francine
PS - I knew you were referring to me.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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trueblushorthairs
MH
Posts:129
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| 01/13/2011 7:17 AM |
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I believe my point has now been made, with people giving their personal opinion that is vastly different from reality. All field trial dogs are a certain type, all show dogs are a specific type, dogs being DQ'ed for being oversized, field trial dogs can't be shown due to their body type, larger dogs can't be hunted on certain game in certain areas,etc. Most need to actually attend some of these events and see what is really happening, very tall dogs and females being put up in conformation shows, trial dogs who are shown successfully, larger dogs that do hunt, and be assured they don't put the dogs at conformation shows on the scales.
I will assert that no one will ever force me to show my dogs nor will I force anyone to field trial their show dogs. I do believe that every dog that is a registered GSP should be REQUIRED to be hunted before the dog could ever garner any title. Ain't gonna happen. But, I would like to see some of the lumbering show dogs hunt chukar in Montana, quail in west Texas, and I would love to see all field trial dogs do the same. Type and style should include a body type and style that makes the dog a useful hunting companion. These are not poodles so to me, that factor is number ONE!! |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4473
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| 01/13/2011 8:01 AM |
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With what has been posted by several people I can see more clearly what is happening - how the different types are being defined and determined.
How I am reading the use of the word type - it can be switched with the word variety.
There may be 2-3 varieties produced - and the ones that fall within the standard are of TYPE. We should not accept non TYPE dogs into the system by allowing them to be registered and breed. But, as there is no breed warden there can be no higher power to regulate TYPE. The breed is left soley up to an individuals desires, likes and dislikes. Flood the market with less typey dogs and it becomes the norm - with those of us who KNOW the TYPE (the standard) left to protest and fade in the distance.
This thread discussed lemon dogs - a flesh colored nose is a DQ, the lemon color is a DQ. It is impossible for an 'ee' dog to produce dark pigment. The 'ee' gene is not 'supposed' to be in shorthairs but it is of late and is being determined that this occurance is due to genes from 125 years ago.
Breeders who produce 'e' dogs are creating a new type (variety). Is it of TYPE?
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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RyanGSP
MH
Posts:446
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| 01/13/2011 8:02 AM |
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Posted By pixie bee on 01/13/2011 4:54 AM
My dogs are 70lbs and would do well running for hours in the prairies. They are lean and are not 'big boned'. Conditioning will solve most dog's issues with terrain.
Ryan, do you have proof the job can not be done by my dogs?
You think they would do well. I see it all the time out here people with dogs built just like yours and the dogs are done after 2 or 3 hours. I am not talking about a few hours I am talking all day. 6 or 7 hours with maybe a stop for lunch in the mix somewhere so they rest for an hour.
Ive tried to get your out here pixie I wont do that again. One day you will get brave enough to take on the bet I offered years ago. When that day comes you let me know. |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4473
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| 01/13/2011 8:24 AM |
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Ryan,Ryan,Ryan.
I have nothing to prove.
I don't hunt for that long anyway. 2-3 hours and I've had enough. The dogs haven't but we have. We hunt up and down mountainsides,thru snow, thru woods and fields and water sometimes. What you are talking about is conditioning. My dogs are objective seekers and would do well in the sparse terrain. It may take them a a few contacts to adjust to handling the birds- but that's all aout having enough bird contacts. Since nose it not the issue, what is there left to prove?
If you are wanting to prove your dog can locate faster than mine - that's just silly and being an adult - I don't buy into it.
We are woods hunters primarily. grouse,woodcock and rabbit. How would your dogs fair in the grouse woods? Can your dogs point up a tree? Mine can. Can your dog walk at heel thru the woods and be steady thru 'fall' on rabbit or thru 'fall' while pond jumping? Mine can. We are pretty darn good at stalking. We like to hunt this way when the situation calls for it, which is part of every hunt. Thing is Ryan, my dogs can handle all the different diciplines, can yours?
And in case I haven't mentioned it -
MY DOG IS BETTER THAN YOU DOG.
(I just had to add that) |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Legallyblonde
Otsego MI
MH
Posts:244
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| 01/13/2011 8:29 AM |
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Posted By CathyYak on 01/13/2011 5:47 AM
You are right there Francine, there is no such thing as a perfect dog. They all have things that could be improved to adhere to the standard. Every breeding we do is aimed at "building a better mouse trap". But gain a little here, lose a little there is more the norm.
Your dogs look very nice in the photos. There is nothing stopping you from testing the liver one in the ring so that you can "put your money where you mouth is" so to speak. Breeding tests are like hunting tests, they tell you that your dog has passed the minimum qualifications for a rating or a title. But competiton against other dogs paints a better picture. And you could show the black one in UKC shows. I know a few people with black and white UKC champions.
Yep there are some b/w UKC Champions--my boy below is one of them!
In UKC shows I tend to stay away from judges that lean more towards the AKC style. Many of them won't even look at black dogs, which is a shame, and they usually like the larger, bigger boned dogs you're seeing in the AKC ring. Ozzy's got two things working against him, being black and on the smaller end of the standard (he's at 24 inches), so I'm pretty proud he finished to CH at 10 months old. I personally like his size, and he's got power and stamina to go all day in the field as well.
I'm not really into dog shows, but UKC is less political than AKC, no professional handlers allowed, and I really like the total dog philosphy. UKC does have a lot of judges that don't follow AKC trends (you see fully functional German Shepherds finishing to GRCH-gasp!)I wanted a dog that could be the total package and AKC doesn't give me that option, so we show UKC and test NAVHDA. He also competes in weight pull, disc, and dock jumping so I think he goes beyond versatile : )
I do think he has TYPE too : )
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UWPCH CA GSJCH USUVCH Boogerman Loverboy Oskar TDI CGC
SHR UWP CH Abbe Lane's Prince of Darkness TAN NA-I RBIMBS |
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Legallyblonde
Otsego MI
MH
Posts:244
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| 01/13/2011 8:31 AM |
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| And Pixie Bee, I think your dogs are gorgeous! |
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UWPCH CA GSJCH USUVCH Boogerman Loverboy Oskar TDI CGC
SHR UWP CH Abbe Lane's Prince of Darkness TAN NA-I RBIMBS |
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briarpatch
N.J.
MH
Posts:168
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4473
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| 01/13/2011 9:32 AM |
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Shorthairs have K, so the entire breed will have KK.
In the studbooks around the world you don't find e you find EE.
B may or may not be present.BE makes black.E makes liver.
Z is in most shorthairs. If not and zz occurs you will have a cinnamon.
e tells us there was a cross.
I have seen this picture of Ozzy before and I did remark to myself how typey his is. He is one handsome dude.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4473
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| 01/13/2011 9:35 AM |
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And as a side note:
Haiko was measured with a wicket at a conformation rating - all the dogs present were. He is exactly 26".
Cathy stated the height requirements of the AKC. An oversized dog can be DQd.
Briarpatch,
you said you were home sick. I'm sorry to hear it resulted in a trip to the vet. Feel better. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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CathyYak
MH
Posts:963
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| 01/13/2011 9:51 AM |
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I believe there is an AKC measuring device known as a wicket that an AKC judge may opt to use to Dis Qualify a dog for size if he/she so wishes to do so , this is not normally used but I read somewhere it may be used , I could be wrong I guess if the largest GSP on record I think he was 30 some inches at the withers walked into the ring I am sure he wouldnt be DQed and he would be permitted to compete..I have been wrong before...
And you Cathy just mentioned several TYPES of GSP in your little spout off ...
Your of Type is not the same of type as many others ..does that make your type the right type for the GSP ??? Buy American AKC Standards yes it does..by all american breeders standards NO it does not ...
There is a measuring device called a wicket. But since THERE IS NO DQ FOR SIZE IN THE AKC GSP STANDARD, the judge is not permitted to use one to measure any GSP in their ring. Period the end. So yes, the 30" tall GSP (never saw one that large) can stay in and compete however it is unlikely that it will win. And no, I did not mention several types of GSPs in my "spout off". And yes, my dogs are of correct type for German Shorthaired Pointers according to the AKC Standard. Which is the standard that matters to me. The personal standards of anonymous and varied American breeders is not my concern, as my standards are not theirs. |
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Cathy Iacopelli
Claddagh Kennels
Long Island, New York |
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