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pixie bee
 MH Posts:4450


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| 01/10/2011 10:37 AM |
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I have strong opinions about TYPE. I do not fall into the category of their is more than one TYPE within a breed. There can only be one TYPE. Anything out of the standard is not of TYPE. There are some more drastically out of standard than others. The less drastic,IMHO, should be bred to IF they have positive attributes that are desired by breeders. Standard is a funny thing. Really gets people going. it can be bred to the utmost lower end or the utmost higher end and anything in between. So, we choose what we desire and create a line within a line. But, is it really a line within a line? Or just those flooding the market,making it common place, therefore the norm? Is the GSP a versatile dog? What does it mean to be versatile? If a GSP is a field trial bred dog, what happens to the versatility aspect? Is it still there? Does the FT bred GSP ride on the coattails of its origins? Does a GSP who does well in NAVHDA earn the name 'versatile'? Do DKs corner the market on versatility? For the record - I think not. Versatility is more than the drive for wing and fur. Any well bred dog will have drive and nose. If versatility was better understood then maybe this aspect would be as hardwired as is drive and nose. A hunter/breeder who doesn't require their dogs to do intense water searches or blood tracking would benefit a great deal with what these tasks offer in temperment. Is versatility part of the GSP TYPE? |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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briarpatch N.J.
 MH Posts:168


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trueblushorthairs
 MH Posts:129


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| 01/10/2011 11:15 AM |
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Briarpatch, not by any means asking or begging for an argument, purely stating facts that are not debatable. I am a field trialer, but I also would never breed a dog that was anywhere out of the standard in height or weight. I breed for nose, biddability, style, speed, etc. for not only trialing but for hunting wild birds. I will only breed a dog that has proven his or her abilities by being hunted on wild birds for multiple years and I duck hunt all of my dogs. No, I don't track deer with my dogs, I don't deer hunt, period. Further, I judge far too many show dogs in hunting tests and trials and have seen what the average show breeder has done to those dogs, no style, no speed, no desire, no BIRDDOG, too large, lumbering, etc. Both of these are a hinderance, at best, to the breed. This is NOT to say that all trialers or that ALL show breeders are killing the breed. But, if one ignores many of the important characteristics of the breed, then yes, these breeders are hurting the breed. Breeding for specific traits, show prancing and ignoring BIRDDOG, trial speed and range but ignoring BIRDDOG and trainability HURT the breed. I don't believe anone can argue those as anything but factual. We can get into the versatility aspect, but one man's versatile is another man's mono-dimensional. If I trial and hunt quail and ducks, is my dog not versatile enough for some? If I show my dogs and put the "elusive" JH on them does that make my dogs versatile? |
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briarpatch N.J.
 MH Posts:168


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| 01/10/2011 11:38 AM |
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There is all kinds of things that others do that you or I may consider hurting the breed, that another in another part of the country may consider what you or I are doing is hurting the breed .. My point is why bicker over who is doing what you consider an injustice to the breed , their are others who would look at your hounds and say the same thing , they dont hunt like i need them to in my area or arena ... Everyone uses this breed in a different fashion makes the breed very diverse ..and they are going to continue to do that no matter how much anyone bickers ..So why bicker over it breed and buy the dogs that suite your needs from breeders who are breeding for the things you require of your dogs .. There is no Need for mine is better than yours stick with what you like and educate others to investigate thier choice in breeders well so they will get a dog they will be pleased with from the breed. They may not want what you want from the breed ..and there are other breeders out there to supply what anyone wants in this very diverse breed. |
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pixie bee
 MH Posts:4450


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| 01/10/2011 11:54 AM |
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All DKs bred in the DKV must pass the breeding requirements. These requirements include fur and water as well as other aspects of versatility. What the dog is used for by the owner matters little. The testing will show,as best a test can, the ability and temperment of a breeding.
Here is the best article I have read describing versatility. There are articles on the DK and DD and the testing systems that I can not post publically,sorry.
http://www.trader.co.nz/versatiledogs/articles/derjag.htm
For me, it's not about whos dog is better, but whos dog is bred correctly. We can not have perfect dogs, we can have correctly bred dogs,tho. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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briarpatch N.J.
 MH Posts:168


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| 01/10/2011 11:55 AM |
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So the point is why bicker you may think what someone is doing is an injustice , someone else may look at what you are doing and think its an injustice to the breed because their needs for their dogs doesnt match yours..Doesnt really mean either of you are doing an injustice you are both doing what you believe is best to create the best GSP/DK that fits your needs .. Dont bicker about it stick to what you like .. |
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briarpatch N.J.
 MH Posts:168


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| 01/10/2011 12:00 PM |
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OKAY PIXIE YOU HAVE THE MOST VERSATILE DOGS EVER and everyone elses stink ...happy now is that all you needed.... Seriously though I think what DK breeders have done with the breed is great , I dont think it is the ideal dog for everyone and some breeders have totally different TYPES than others in the DK just as with the GSP .. but thats just my opinion |
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pixie bee
 MH Posts:4450


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| 01/10/2011 12:02 PM |
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I didn't realize I was bickering over who is better. I thought my points came across about how I feel about correct TYPE,how I believe the 'e' found its way into some GSPs and that I am open to possibilities that are actual possibilities. Where there are passions, emotions will rise. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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trueblushorthairs
 MH Posts:129


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| 01/10/2011 12:05 PM |
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I am far from the breed police Briarpatch, but it does amaze me that anyone would say live and let live when it comes to a breed of dog that was put on the earth to HUNT. Again, any show person who ignores the need in their dogs to be able to hunt, even point, have any desire, is far from not hunting like I want. If a dog won't point, if they have to be hacked into a bird to only somewhat stand the bird and certainly not point, then we have a problem in the breed with that type of breeder. For a breeder to breed dogs that range a mile, but have no pointing desire, is a problem in the breed or at least with that particular breeder. I don't care if anyone hunts quail, they can hunt woodcock, or grouse, or pheasants, or chukar, but to never hunt and/or to produce dogs with no desire to do same, they should go buy a poodle IMHO. If anyone feels I am doing an injustice to my dogs by hunting them 20 plus days per year on wild quail, to trial and prove the dogs muster on wild birds in many cases. To pay close attention to my breeding stock and to make sure they are health tested, have titles, produce hard hunting dogs, then I guess their definition of "breed injustice" should be altered. |
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briarpatch N.J.
 MH Posts:168


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| 01/10/2011 2:02 PM |
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true blue , truthfully I havent a clue what you are producing must be Dual champs I would guess by your statements I dont see a website posted or even a dog in your pictures, maybe your producing horses I honestly dont know , but you can bet someone would look at whatever your producing and gripe about thats not what a true shorthair should be .. they should be more like mine , is the point ..others may look at what your producing and think that is the perfect shorthair for me .. everyone is entitled to their own opinion as to what it takes to make the perfect dog. What is perfection in your eyes may not be so perfect in the next person eyes .. |
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briarpatch N.J.
 MH Posts:168


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| 01/10/2011 2:11 PM |
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| beings your experience touted with the breed you shoud have seen qualities in all the different types , obviously they all have some different qualities and faults .. |
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trueblushorthairs
 MH Posts:129


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| 01/11/2011 9:46 AM |
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Briarpatch, a couple of links to several of my dogs...
http://lsgspc.org/Hud.html
http://www.cajunkennels.com/ you'll have to click on "customer's dogs", then FC Slick's Cajun Desire.
However, there is no perfection. Further, I don't show my dogs nor did I say that I did. What I did say was that as breeders we need to pay close attention to the breed standard and try to produce dogs that fall within that standard purely based on conformation. Oversized, undersized, round eyes, etc. won't cut it IMHO.
However, I am far more concerned with those who produce pups and never hunt them or purely put a JH on a dog and actually believe that the dog has proven its muster hunting. Flat is NOT the case.
And, honestly, the few duals who are out there, I have seen so so few that were worth much as hunting dogs it's scary. I can name one dual that is truly worthy of the DUAL title...
http://www.rsaledogs.com/hank.html
Bocephus is an excellent example of a true DUAL dog. Hunted on wild birds each year, placed at the GSPCA Nationals, excellent trial dog, but also has the CH title in very strong competition. Can't say that about many others around.
A big lumbering dog with a show CH and a JH is far from this type of dog. |
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briarpatch N.J.
 MH Posts:168


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| 01/11/2011 10:00 AM |
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Trueblue , nice lookin pooches , not my personal preference in TYPE of pooches but still nice lookin dogs none the less.. my dogs do have the elusive JH title but that certainly isnt due to a lack of hunting I assure you ...lol |
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trueblushorthairs
 MH Posts:129


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| 01/11/2011 10:19 AM |
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| Thanks Briarpatch. So that you know, IMHO the junior hunter is just great for beginners and for those who are wanting to do SOMETHING with their dogs, but when some consider it an "end all" title it's sad. Further, IMHO, if a dog is a FC, AFC, MH, or whatever title, and they have not been hunted on wild birds, they are not proven. I'll take a dog that has been hunted and is well bred over a dog that is not hunted, has any title, and is well bred, any day. |
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CL66
 MH Posts:419


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| 01/12/2011 10:24 AM |
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| Reading this thread with interest. Does anyone have a link to a pic/pics of a dog that shows correct type for this breed? I'm interested as my two are so different looking i'd be interested to compare which one more fits the 'type'. |
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CL66
 MH Posts:419


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| 01/12/2011 10:24 AM |
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| Reading this thread with interest. Does anyone have a link to a pic/pics of a dog that shows correct type for this breed? I'm interested as my two are so different looking i'd be interested to compare which one more fits the 'type'. |
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pixie bee
 MH Posts:4450


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| 01/12/2011 10:38 AM |
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There are my dogs. I don't want topost other's dogs b/c I do not have permission.




Every dog on here:http://www.nadkc.org/deutsch_kurzhaar_litters.htm
is of TYPE. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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RyanGSP
 MH Posts:430

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| 01/12/2011 12:25 PM |
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Everyone has their own idea of what the correct type is. Pixie has some nice dogs but IMO I dont like that way they look. Someone else may post dogs that someone wont like. And so on. There is so many variations and ideas as to what to the "Correct Type" that there is no correct type. |
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pixie bee
 MH Posts:4450


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| 01/12/2011 1:03 PM |
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I do believe that falls into STYLE,Ryan.
Did yoy read the link Cathy posted?
There can only be one TYPE.
Here is the opening sentence to the article:
Breed type encompasses appearance, character, condition, bone structure, temperament, and movement; "breed type is all these things."Ώ] Breed type also includes a character specific to each breed, a combination of behaviour, temperament and carriage that demonstrate an essence of the breed.[
And the closing :
The word type may be incorrectly used instead of style to refer to an identifiable 'style of appearance' or 'working style characteristic' of a particular kennel or "dogs of a well established line".⎘] This terminology is incorrect. The word type in reference to a dog refers specifically to the description of what defines that breed and what makes that breed of dog different from every other breed, as can be found in that breed's written Standard. When comparing dogs of the same breed, you look at type first and foremost, and then you look for different styles of dogs within that breed. The term style refers to characteristics that are different in each dog that already has breed type. There can be a vast variety of styles existing in each breed of dog. These characteristics develop from a breeder's desire to create a distinct 'look' (or style) within their line. Breeders create their own style within their line, being careful not to stray from breed type.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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RyanGSP
 MH Posts:430

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| 01/12/2011 1:11 PM |
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In your opinion maybe. But like Brair said earlier what you say is God and the rest of us are wrong so im not even going to argue with you. |
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