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http://www.shorthairs.net/GSPForum/tabid/220/forumid/2/tpage/1/view/Topic/postid/28449/Default.aspx

There are more threads, but as anyone can see, I do not bash any breed or individual dog.

Thank you for your time,

Francine M.

To get back to the OP, I finally got a chance to go and look at the pedigree of the dogs involved in the oops breeding and WOW. This may be an oops, but it was a darn lucky oops as this pedigree has some of the nicest shorthairs in both pedigrees. Many I am very familiar with as they are close relatives also appear in my own lines. Very nice hunting and conformation dogs, some good duals and for those that don't know, some nice obedience bloodlines thrown in too. I focus my breeding on hunting, obedience and agility dogs with excellent conformation. My dogs have allot of the Odyssey and Lieblinghaus dogs in them and for those that don't know Odyssey's Air Jordan was top Obedience sire in 2009. Odyssey's Air Jordan is out of Oddyssey's Saint Blitz and Lieblinghaus Hunter's Moon. Oddyssey's Air Jordan is also the sire of my girl, Halo and grandpa to my latest addition, Fauna. IMHO these dogs in this pedigree would have no problems with versatility. How do I know, because my dogs who are closely related are very versatile. My guys are involved in hunting, obedience, conformation, agility, therapy dog work, tracking, and fly ball. I don't compete in all those venues, but I have trained in all of them.

So, OP even if this is an oops I would go forth with the breeding and be very proud of the puppies. Can't wait to see the outcome when you post pictures.

No system,breed,breeder,etc is w/o flaws.
The gene pool is small and some breeders do use the gene pool that exists in germany w/o importing.
The sytem is not simply "truely about versatilty". There is so much more. The history of the GSP as a breed and individual dogs are unknown - undocumented - we know that there has been crosses to the EP and other breed(s). And before anyone says anything about behind the barn breeding - it can not be proven in the DK but is common knowledge in the GSP. There is no way of knowing all the dogs affected by this and the DKV is adamant about pure breeding.
Bite and teeth are not recorded,Hip xray is not recorded in some dogs for more than a couple of generations,there is no known or documented temperment testing,the NAVHDA testing does not compare to the DKV testing in a number of ways,just to name a few reasons why the DKV is strict about admittence.
The GSP has simply gone in a different direction and the DKV would have to make certain that they do not set the DK back with the assimilation. A century of work could be weakened in just one generation.
It's a difficult task as is to breed quality versatility,solid conformation,good bites, temperment and health the DK breeders would need absolute reassurance of any GSP presented for breeding. Von Wildebrands (spelling)disease is not common, if at all in the DK along with other issues that affect the GSP. You don't see all the required testing in DKs that you see as a must for a quality GSP breeder.
If anyone wants to participate in the DKV testing they would need to buy a DK.

I apologize if this all sounds purist and stuck up.
If someone can debate w/o attacking it would be a breath of fresh air.
It is not my mission to prove the DK better - only show the rift and that I do not deserve the attack on my character and my credibility.
 

I think you somewhat miss MY point.....I'm not talking about adding new breeds in, this hardly compares to a Labradoodle. I'm talking about widening and expanding and striving to improve a gene pool. I guess I just don't get the whole purist mentality. Germany is not that big of a country and I just can't see what's wrong with mixing in some new blood to widen a small gene pool, so long as it's with quality versatile dogs. To say that one cross of a DK with a GSP could ruin generations of breeding is rather condescending and implies to me that you think GSP's are inferior and that hre is no room for improvement in DK's
Here's an example. At UKC we have Epagnuel Bretons, whci are French Brittany's, a bit different from American Brittany's. They have a club under UKC, and have their own special registration process. Dogs registered with AKC as Brittanys may register as an Epegnuel if they submit photos of the dog and I believe a 6 gen pedigree that the club will examine for French ancestors and approve or deny registration based on the whole application. So, they may have some American Brittany in there but if they have the right ancestry and the right look the club may approve them.
There have been plenty of examples of crossing other breeds in to certain breeds as well for health or cosmetic reasons....Boxers with Corgis for natural bob tail and the LUA Dalmatians with Pointers are two I can think of offhand. Shrinking gene pools and notions of purity are what lead to health problems and other issues, in my opinion.
And for that matter, who says we don't need more dog breeds? I personally would not have a problem with Labradoodles if people were actually breeding with a goal of an actual breed, rather than simply breeding Labs to Poodles and stopping there. If there is a purpose and a demand for a new breed, why not? All breeds were originally created for a purpose or function, not necessarily for a certain look or type only......a return to more emphasis on function is something I would like to see for all purebreds, but I'm a bit of an idealist I guess.

I do not want to get into a debate on DK vs GSP as I think they are both great dogs. However, I do feel compelled to respond as I think you have picked on the GSP unfairly.

As for the history of the GSP, I would beg to differ that as a breed and as individual dogs it is unknown and undocumented. There has been extensive documented research into the breed and there are several very good books on the breed. Georgina Byrnes book is probably the best known, but there are others as well. Additionally the GSPCA has quite a bit of the history of the breed documented as well as the individual big kennels also have well documented information on their dogs. Then there are the icons of the breed that have collected information over the years and continue to educate folks on the GSP. As for my own pedigree, I can trace it way back and health testing goes back well beyond 2 generations and it is documented. In fact, many if not most of the GSP lines that I am familiar with have documented health testing going back much further than two generations.

As for crosses to other breeds and that it is "commonly known" in the GSP, well maybe it is known to some, but not in the lines I am familiar with, and unless you can prove this "common knowledge," then it is heresay and best not to even go there. DNA testing has been required on GSPs for quite sometime for any dog competing in a National event. That testing is primarily to rule out the potential for the very thing that is supposed to be "common" as well as to document dual sired pups. On this one, I would be very careful in pointing a finger, because you might find that finger pointing right back. I do not care how good the record keeping, if someone wants to cheat they will find a way.

As for temperament testing, what better temperament test than GSPs working as therapy dogs, competing in various performance events and hunting venues. Dogs that do all of that have to have good temperaments, anything less reveals itself really fast. I do not trust a test alone to evaluate the temperament of a dog, observation over time in various settings is much better than a test. Take for example therapy dogs, they have to be able to handle some of the most stressful situations I have ever seen. How many dogs could stand calmly while someone grabs them hard, and holds on, makes very odd sounds, and acts very erratic? Not many, but my girl, Belle, does that every other week at the state school. Tests are just one mechanism for evaluating and I personally do not put allot of stake in just a test. I certainly would not bet my breeding program on just a test.

As for Von Wildebrands disease or LD or any other disease, to say they are in shorthairs is true, to say they are prevalent or common, is not true. Do some lines have carriers, yes, and thank goodness we are doing genetic testing now to figure out who the carriers are so that we can breed away from these diseases. To stick your head in the ground about breeding and health testing is dangerous, and if you breed long enough whether it is DKs or GSPs you will be surprised at some of the things you get whether it is a dilute color or an overbite or something worse. No one is immune from Mother Nature and she has a wicked way of surprising us no matter how careful we may be in our breeding programs, and how carefully we document things. To believe that any breed is free from the skeletons in the closet is narrow minded. To believe that there are no skeletons in the closet of any breed is also narrow minded. Until the DKs are being tested genetically, like we do with GSPs, for VW, LD or other diseases that we now have tests for, no one can claim the breed is free from the disease or carriers. Also, the reason to genetically test is not because there is a problem in the breed, but to keep a problem from happening or progressing in a breed. These tests have nothing to do with the quality of the dog. Excellent dogs can be carriers and unless they happen to be bred to another carrier no one ever knows there is an issue, and in some instances it might actually make since to breed to a carrier for other traits. Since we have the genetic test we can then test the pups and continue the good traits of the carrier dog without ever passing on the disease. Also, I would think that since many of the GSPs of today go back to some of the same lines that DKs came from, the DK folks would want to be testing for these diseases and not sticking their head in the sand and waiting for something to crop up in a breeding. All it takes is two carriers to be bred to have a litter of pups that will suffer.

As for whether or not my dogs could pass the tests for DK, probably, but since that is not what I choose to do with my dogs we will never know. Any more than we will ever know whether some of the DKs out there could compete in obedience at the level that my dogs compete at. My personal opinion is that we do what we have time, money, and enjoy doing with our dogs and it does not mean that my dogs are better than another or worse than another, or even incapable of something. I really think it is pretty pointless and a waste of time to debate the merits of DKs vs GSPs. Instead I believe we should spend our time doing what we enjoy doing with our dogs and working to the best of our abilities to better our breed.

As for whether you sound like a purist or stuck up, well frankly, you do. You also sound a bit sanctimonious and yes you are also running down the GSP without providing any information, but heresay. And frankly, I found the tone of your post to be insulting. I do not go around running down other breeds, just because I have a GSP and I am proud of my dogs and my breed of choice. I could, but to what purpose. I love my GSPs just as much as you love your DKs. Isn't that enough? Or is it so important to play this game of my dog is better than your dog?