Appreciate all the inputs, this is a very enlightening discussion. 

I do have a question for Wagonmaster, et al, who feel hunting trials or tests are the only requirement for maintaining the breed.  What about enforcing the breed standard?  Where does that get addressed in field trials?  If trials are all that matters, the GSP of tomorrow might look nothing like the GSP of today.  Yet the way I understand the breed standard (and the organizations that enforce that standard), is that our goal is to maintain a consistent breed that resembles its forefathers.  I mean, suppose super tall dogs were needed to compete with pointers, do we really want 27" GSPs becoming the norm?

So my question in sum:  How do you enforce the breed standard only through trialing?

Not to be filip, but guess what, the GSP of today does not look like the GSP of a hundred years ago, or even the GSP of 30 years ago.  But they are still GSP's.  Take your measuring stick and go up and down any stake out chain at any field trial.  I wager you will find more GSP's there that are within the size standard, than you would find if you did the same with show dogs, most of which are now out of the size standard or they don't win.  So how does one uphold a conformation standard?  Certainly not by showing dogs; show judges regularly place dogs that are over the standard.  Did I mention earlier that there has been an effort to outright disqualify dogs that are more than an inch out of standard, and the show people won't vote for it?

Field trialers frankly don't care what size the dog is.  But there does seem to be a "sweet spot," a "best size" for GSP's, and it is pretty well written into the standard.  Why do you think the size range of the standard was picked?  It was not because a committee decided that we should make GSP's of a certain size, it was because the well functioning dogs were of a certain size, and that was written into the standard.  That size was arrived at by breeding for use of the dog, not putting it in the show ring.

What has changed in the "look" of the modern field GSP is that it is more lithe, less heavy boned than those of old.  Sort of like the difference between runners and body builders.   No written standard can address that.  

Learn the lesson that Solms and Kleeman taught.  Don't breed your dogs with a conformation in mind.  Breed them with a desired performance in mind.  They will then be conformed correctly to carry out the task.  When you do that, you will find that they look just fine, thanks.  

PS Nobody is trying to compete with the pointers.  They have their trials; we have ours. 

I have no horse in the race here, as I do not yet show or trial/hunt test GSPs.  So my questions are of pure interest, with no ulterior motive.  That said, how do we know that the Americanized GSPs are any better than their German forebears (or even worse)?  I am curious how American GSPs do against the heavier boned DKs?  Anybody know?

It does make sense that a more lithe dog would have greater endurance than a stockier build, as it takes less energy to propel the dog forward and less wasted motion moving legs around a wide chest, etc.  Of course less bone might mean a dog with less power, which could be a disadvantage in certain field conditions.

They are better for what we do with them in the US.  We hunt birds with them.  As I said earlier, there is practically no bird hunting in Germany, so they are used to hunt hare, as bay dogs to hunt wild boar, to trail deer and to kill predators, fox, feral cats, etc.  Very few people here in the US want pointing breeds for those purposes.

How do American GSPs "do" against German dogs?  Most American dogs would decline to fight unless attacked.

Leah, these are excellent comments, thank you.  The conversation certainly hasn't ended, as this should be an ongoing discussion in our breed!  I particularly like your point that both "field trial only" and "show only" folks seem to be taking the breed in a new direction from the original standard.  Again, I am not certain what is "right," only interested in understanding everyone's perspectives on this important issue.

Ken

"But it's okay for bird/rabbit/boar/hare dogs to be bred just for birds? If the GSP is a breed that people loved for it's versatility, don't shorthair breeders have a responsibility to not turn them into another breed?"

That's simple.  Nobody wants them for rabbit/boar/hare dogs in the US.  That is an overstatement of course.  There are small numbers of people in the US who use them for those things.  But the great majority want them for bird dogs.   In Minnesota, the state I am from, the "take" of rabbits is a teeny fraction of the take of upland birds.  Grouse, pheasant, and other birds in a good year will result in a harvest of around 1.8 - 2 million birds.  Rabbits will be about 20,000, and most of those are incidental to other hunting.  As you go west the numbers of upland birds harvested are even bigger.  And it is illegal in most states to use dogs for deer, not considered fair chase. 

Your issue about turning the dogs into something else could just as well be aimed at the Deutsch Kurzhaar Verband, the German club.  Hunting opportunities in Germany have become extremely limited in the last 100 years.  Bird populations are practically nonexistent today.  And the breed in Germany has gone through some crushing times.  From the '30's through WWII it was governed believe it or not, by Reichsmarshall Hermann Goering, who decided that the dog should be camoflage colored and ordered all the white colored dogs put down, and they were.  As a result of the war and its destruction, kennel owners were forced to open the kennel doors and leave the dogs to fend for themselves while the kennel owners fled.  The DKV reorganized after the War, but then in the 80's the Berlin wall fell, and two breeds, the Western dogs and the Eastern dogs, were brought together under one roof.  Change has been a constant fact of life for the DK breed in Germany.  They have changed the dog to meet circumstances.  Was that "right," or "wrong," or is it just one of those things that "is."

I have to say, Leah, I can tell from your questions that you just don't hunt.  If you did, you would know what I am talking about.  It sounds to me as though it is all theory to you.

Do you show dogs?  Just curious.

Specialized??  You have been listening to too much propaganda. 

I, personally, have hunted since I was five, which is a total of 54 years now.  I have hunted almost entirely from foot.  I have hunted sharptail, pheasant, ruffed grouse, hungarian partridge, quail, woodcock, and several other species. Also have hunted a great deal of waterfowl.  I have hunted in Iowa, Minnesota, North and South Dakota, Missouri, Nebraska, New Mexico, Wisconsin, and Alberta.  My dogs are out every fall.  We usually start with the sharptail opener in September and finish on pheasants when the season closes in ND. 

I have many friends who do the same.

Over decades of doing this, I have learned that dogs out of field trial stock are simply the superior wild bird dogs.  Period.  That is why I have them; I don't have them to field trial.  I field trial to have a way to have some fun with the dogs during the off season, and because field trialing is far and away the best method of selecting dogs for breeding. 

It has not been a matter of "changing" the breed, it has been decades of adaptation to what we actually use them for here in the US, rather than theory.  The principle change, in fact, has been in the temperament of the dogs, which 35 years ago were very hard headed and frequently aggressive, a gift from the Germans. 

When you manage to get away from the show people, and actually go hunting, then maybe we would have a basis for discussing these issues further. 

As a Breeder, shouldn't you be looking at not only the field abilities, but also the structure and conformation of the dog?  If a breed is to stay true to it's type and remain consistent, then both field and conformation should be adhered to.  I applaud the germans for being able to maintain breed consistancy with their breeding requirements, this is one reason why I have 2 DKs in my home, along with 4 GSPs.

Unfortunately, this will never happen 100% of the time.  As Ken L. mentioned, their 4 camps in the GSP world - Field Trial (include Hunt tests also) -  Show (conformation)  -  Dual (include breeders using BOTH field and conformation in their breeding program)  -  Hunters (don't really care, just want a good meat dog)