RyanGSP
MH
Posts:430
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| 05/01/2009 10:41 AM |
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Posted By lauralee on 02/26/2009 10:38 AM
Posted By cypresspond on 08/22/2008 6:34 PM
I was recently asked about colors recognized in this breed..I know that the standard colors are solid liver,liver & white,white & liver,& roan & liver.....how about other rarer colors..can someone please email me a picture of one ....cypresspondretrievers@yahoo.com thanks so much ..trac
Liver & Black are the only exceptable colors,,, PLEASE, don't encourage the back yard breeders to see a potential way of exploiting this breed, Thank- You.
I think you need to brush up on your GSP history as there is 1 more colour allowed and it has ben stated previously in this thread.
A good dog cant be a bad colour. If it puts birds int he bag, looks good doing it, and isnt a run off then I would buy it even if it were flouresent pink. |
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GSP7
Calif/Idaho
JH
Posts:27
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| 05/03/2009 11:17 AM |
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I personaly dont like black in GSPs. Like you guys posted, I read/heard black is a disqualification. Then we have the Deutsch Kurz Haar people, Im still not sure whats up with them claiming its a different bread, that like black color. I think its Covey Run Kennels that has black dogs |
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RyanGSP
MH
Posts:430
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| 05/03/2009 11:50 AM |
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Posted By GSP7 on 05/03/2009 11:17 AM
I personaly dont like black in GSPs. Like you guys posted, I read/heard black is a disqualification. Then we have the Deutsch Kurz Haar people, Im still not sure whats up with them claiming its a different bread, that like black color. I think its Covey Run Kennels that has black dogs
Seeing the club that developed this breed accepts black and the CKC allows Black heck even he ACK allows black in the field. Its the AKC Conformation group that is in the wrong here. They are the only group in the world I believe that wont allow black on a dog.
There are more knowledgable people about this but I think the DKV wont allow a Black to Black breeding, although it could the the VDD I get the 2 mixed up.
There are a number of kennels that breed black dogs both Deustch Kurzhaars and German Shorthaired Pointers. |
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GSP7
Calif/Idaho
JH
Posts:27
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| 05/03/2009 12:42 PM |
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What is the difference between a Deutsch Kruzhaar and a German Shorthair? Is it just German club DKH and American Club AKC GSP?
Heck , My dogs have all had German Import Dogs in their pedigree and even the sire being a German import.
Rick |
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RyanGSP
MH
Posts:430
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| 05/03/2009 2:12 PM |
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Rick this is a huge can of worms. If you go back through the threads this has been gone over alot. Or make a new thread lets not derail this thread by beating the dead horse. |
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Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:731
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| 05/03/2009 8:46 PM |
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Thank You Ryan.
Much appreciated! |
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Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
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Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:731
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| 05/03/2009 8:54 PM |
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Posted By GSP7 on 05/03/2009 11:17 AM
I personaly dont like black in GSPs.
Any particular reason why not?
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Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 05/04/2009 5:38 AM |
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The DK is today what it was when it was created,over 100 years ago. The performance based breeding program has, as best any system can, guarenteed a breed standard, a high one. It is this performance based breeding program that separates the DK and GSP.
The VCDKK website has a nice write-up of what a performance breeding is and why it is important to the DK as a breed. A good read for anyone not sure what the difference is.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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RyanGSP
MH
Posts:430
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| 05/04/2009 9:36 AM |
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Posted By pixie bee on 05/04/2009 5:38 AM
The DK is today what it was when it was created,over 100 years ago. The performance based breeding program has, as best any system can, guarenteed a breed standard, a high one. It is this performance based breeding program that separates the DK and GSP.
The VCDKK website has a nice write-up of what a performance breeding is and why it is important to the DK as a breed. A good read for anyone not sure what the difference is.
Why dont you try to keep this thread on track. Its about the colours of the GSP not the performance testing of the Deutsch Kurzhaar, make another thread if you want to talk about that.
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 05/04/2009 9:43 AM |
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It's due to the exceptional breeding program that is exactly why black is in existence.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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RyanGSP
MH
Posts:430
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| 05/04/2009 9:54 AM |
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How so?
The AKC has no breeding program yet there is a lot of black dogs around. |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 05/04/2009 10:28 AM |
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All AKC GSPs originated from europe,yes?
Well, the DK breeders of yor noticed the DK dogs had an exceptional nose but it was to low and that the eye color was getting lighter. They thought by breeding to the Arkwright Pointer they could bring the nose up and darken the eye pigment. They were only 1/2 right.
So, every black DK and GSP has the color from the Arkwright Pointer. A exceptional pointer that no longer exists. Until the black proved themselves they were kept in a separate registry.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:731
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| 05/04/2009 12:32 PM |
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"Arkwright Pointer. A exceptional pointer that no longer exists."
Not completely accurate Pixie. As with Bob Wehle and his Elhew, there are some "so to speak", "Arkwright" Pointers still to be found. I had the pleasure of meeting one a few years back that due to a tail injury, had it's tail amputated to the same length as a Shorthair dock and initially I believed it to be a Black Shorthair. After much discussion with her owner he was pleasantly surprised to hear I knew some of the history behind the Arkwright and shared her Pedigree with me, which was linebred going all the way back as far as he had traced some 10-12 generations, on Arkwright breeding. He was an Aussie or New Zealander if I recall correctly and explained that while VERY, VERY FEW were to be found, that they were holding by a thread in the snowier regions of the World where the Black was advantageous to the Sportsman. Seemed strange to me to have a short coated dog like a Pointer in such regions, but I believe he got his from Iceland perhaps?
You are 100% accurate on what the intentions/hopes of the Breeders of the day were, when the Black Arkwright Pointer was brought into the gene pool, according to what the history books tell us. |
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Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 05/04/2009 1:12 PM |
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I am under the impression that the breed died with him. How much Arkwright Pointer is in the dogs of today would be interesing to know. With so few in existence the gene pool would be incrediby small and this would demand the breeders look elsewhere for blood. Having Arkwright lineage is not the same as being an Arkwright Pointer. Does this person register the dogs as Arkwright Pointers?
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:731
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| 05/04/2009 1:33 PM |
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How they were registered I can not say and I only ran into that Gentleman over the course of about 2 years of Testing and that was 4-5 years ago, so I'm not sure that I will even run into him in the future to inquire. Only speculation at best, but I would think since he had her at an AKC Test, she was likely just registered as a "Pointer" here under the AKC.
I would certainly agree on the question of just how much Arkwright blood was actually in there and that it would seem to be very limited; though the breeding on his Pedigree was incredibly tight, enough so that it would even raise the eyebrows on many of the Pointer Breeders of current, including those few that are breeding strongly on Elhew lines and Bob Wehle's Breeding Philosophy. |
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Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
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mase
MH
Posts:109
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| 05/04/2009 6:31 PM |
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| i find it funny how in some places they ban a certain colour but in the rest of the world it is accepted i live in New Zealand and the black and white is popular over here i know many people who have and still own them im hoping to get one later this year |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 05/05/2009 7:43 AM |
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Black is recognized to some extent. What prevents full recoginition is a mystery.
I feel there should be an all or nothing stand. Either black is or isn't recognized.
No one can deny that black is a true breed color. So, why deny full rights?
Politics and money will usually prevail. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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stlbirddogs
Near St. Louis, Missouri
MH
Posts:147
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| 05/05/2009 6:57 PM |
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AKC doesn't write the breed standards, the breed clubs do. Changes are submitted to the GSPCA and membership votes on the changes. Any changes are then submitted to AKC. There was a vote taken again this year to allow black as an excepted color in the show ring. I believe the votes will be counted at the nationals. I thought it needs a certain percentage of votes, I don't think it was a simple majority. |
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Breeze - GSP
Dusty - Vizsla
The Brat Pack: Heidi, Hershey,Tank, Spot & Zero |
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escampbell
MH
Posts:213
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| 05/06/2009 8:49 PM |
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Any amendment/change to an AKC breed standard requires a 2/3 majority vote (a supermajority) of the membership of the Parent Club, in this case, the German Shorthaired Pointer Club of America. A majority of the membership did vote in favor of allowing black pigmented GSPs in the breed ring in last year's vote, but it was not a 2/3 majority. There was another vote this year. Results wil be announced in a few days, I think.
Pure-bred black or black and white GSPs can be AKC registered and do compete in field trials, hunt tests, obedience, agility, rally. The GSP is not unique. Many breeds have breed ring DQ's, but those dogs with DQ faults can still compete in the other sports.
Eleanor in NJ
One white and liver GSP
Two black and white GSPs
Two Shelties
One cat
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Eleanor Campbell
New Jersey
Sydney, Presto, Price, Ozma and Soleil |
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WildRose
Seymour Texas
MH
Posts:471
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| 05/09/2009 1:05 AM |
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Posted By pixie bee on 05/04/2009 1:12 PM
I am under the impression that the breed died with him. How much Arkwright Pointer is in the dogs of today would be interesing to know. With so few in existence the gene pool would be incrediby small and this would demand the breeders look elsewhere for blood. Having Arkwright lineage is not the same as being an Arkwright Pointer. Does this person register the dogs as Arkwright Pointers?
http://users.starpower.net/kashe/SolidPointers.htm
Mr. John Millar, Mr. John Simpson, Lord Eglinton and a host of other breeders were all active with kennels of solid pointers. Mrs. Hill imported 2 solid black Pointers from Norway in the early 1950's...this dog brought the solid coloration to the present-day solids here in the United States. Leon Shriver brought back the solids in the early 1980's...breeding several litters just for color. There have been solid black, liver and orange from these breedings and they are still being seen today.
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There's a reason I like dogs better'n people... . |
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