Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:731
 |
| 03/31/2008 4:38 PM |
|
| C Bede Maxwell, "The New German Shorthaired Pointer"; starting on page 216 and from Wikipedia "Blue eyes, partially blue eyes, or a blue eye and a brown eye are called "Wall" coloring." |
|
Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
|
|
|
pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
|
| 03/31/2008 4:58 PM |
|
If an adult GSP had blue eyes, wouldn't that make it an outcross?
I do not see how there could possibly be blue eyes in a GSP.
Francine |
|
"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
|
|
|
Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:731
|
| 03/31/2008 5:21 PM |
|
Not necessarily Pixie. There could be a mutation in the dilutes and a host of coat color related anomalies that Mother Nature could throw out there. Would it be suspect? Yes! DNA could prove or disprove that in a hurry though.
There is a lot to be learned about eye colors and coat color influences in the Aussie's that could apply to probably any breed. The odds in a Shorthair though would be like winning the lottery. |
|
Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
|
|
|
pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
|
| 03/31/2008 6:09 PM |
|
The odds in a Shorthair though would be like winning the lottery.
Well, since that ain't gonna happen we have no worries about the breed.
Francine
|
|
"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
|
|
|
Ken Lynch
Hudson Valley in NY
MH
Posts:201
|
| 03/31/2008 8:39 PM |
|
Thank you Bruce,
You have sent me to a book I do not have. Time for more research.
Ken |
|
|
|
|
Trey
SW Iowa
MH
Posts:516
|
| 04/01/2008 5:22 AM |
|
| Bruce, what edition do you have? I have the fourth, the only mention of it was my above statement about the German's would be rolling in their graves, and they can't imagine what would cause it,no hint of what it meant. |
|
|
|
|
pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
|
| 04/01/2008 7:14 AM |
|
In the German standard there is no mention of China or wall eyes. Only light colored.
It seems to be an invention of other countries.
Francine |
|
"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
|
|
|
krtennyson
Northern Virginia
MH
Posts:69
|
| 04/01/2008 7:23 AM |
|
| First the good news....I now am fully confident that I understand flewy (I was pretty close already). The bad news, I still don't understand the distinctions between: "birds of prey," "wall eye," and "china eye." It is my guess that we owe the brits for this addition to the standard. Maybe someday in the distant future we can just say "blue," or "misaligned," or whatever words in current english actually describe the faults and DQs... |
|
Opinions are like @ssholes, everyone has one.
Genuine dialogue benefits everyone, getting on your soapbox is a waste of everyone's time. |
|
|
Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:731
|
| 04/01/2008 8:09 AM |
|
Trey,
I have the 2nd Edition and it attributes it to breeds that come in Harlequin, Merle or Dappled colorations. Cross referencing to those breeds, they call the Blue eyes China and/or Wall eyes. Maxwell also defines the "bird of prey" eyes as being yellow.
It is also interesting to note in that specific section on eyes, the difficulty in keeping those dark eyes that we so desire in our breed and the fact that American breeders can take no hope in what the experimentations with the Arkwright Pointers produced in dark eyes, due to the disqualification of Black in our Standard. |
|
Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
|
|
|
pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
|
| 04/01/2008 11:50 AM |
|
How about this definition?
flews are the cheek-like folds of loose skin at the sides of a dog's mouth. Pointy nosed dogs have short flews and square nosed dogs have droopy flews that hang below the bottom of their mouths. GSPs are somewhere in the middle. Every wonder why your GSP gets the floor wet after he finishes drinking and may carry water a short distance from the bowl? Well, thanks his flews.
See the folds at the corner of Haiko's mouth, those are flews.
Francine |
|
"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
|
|
|
Ace1cappuccino
Carp Lake, Michigan
MH
Posts:1618
|
| 04/02/2008 3:37 PM |
|
I was wondering all along what the china eyes or walleys were. (Here walleye's are a great fish to eat) ha ha
Maybe one term is for color and one is form? Then there is going to be the trouble of how light of brown in the eyes is good. Birds of prey have pretty dark eyes from what I have seen. Maybe it means they are too close together?
How about someone finds some pics to put on here to help us to understand? |
|
Cornell's GSP'S- Mocha cappuccino, Lili Belle Lotte, Sir Leopold Vom Hunter 1, Lil Miss Lotte Doddi, Ace Hunter Twisted Mister(GSP'S)  
|
|
|
krtennyson
Northern Virginia
MH
Posts:69
|
| 04/02/2008 7:34 PM |
|
Posted By Trey on 03/27/2008 7:02 PM
Actually 'Wall eye' is a form of strabismus (what causes crossed eyes) but in 'wall eyes' the eye turn out, or look at the walls. See below for a more technical explaination.
What is strabismus?
Strabismus is a deviation of the eyes. The term is used to describe eyes that are not straight or properly aligned.
What causes the misalignment?
The misalignment results from the failure of the eye muscles to work together. One eye, or sometimes both, may turn in (crossed eyes), turn out (wall eyes), turn up or turn down. Sometimes more than one of the 'turns' are present.
Bird or prey, or yellow eyes are faulted, china eyes (blue) or wall eyes are disqualifiers.
For what it is worth, I think Trey gets it right with his original post above. This is based on my research and going through breed books... China and birds of prey are both eye colors, but the blue eye (china) is more serious and thus a DQ. Wall Eye simply refers to misalignment of the eyes (opposite of cross eyed). Its interesting that even some of the authors of breed books didn't get this correct.
|
|
Opinions are like @ssholes, everyone has one.
Genuine dialogue benefits everyone, getting on your soapbox is a waste of everyone's time. |
|
|
Ace1cappuccino
Carp Lake, Michigan
MH
Posts:1618
|
| 04/03/2008 3:50 PM |
|
Thanks to all on this subject. Glad there are alot of us on this site to help figure this out! This was right up with the coat color and patterns subject.
Bill |
|
Cornell's GSP'S- Mocha cappuccino, Lili Belle Lotte, Sir Leopold Vom Hunter 1, Lil Miss Lotte Doddi, Ace Hunter Twisted Mister(GSP'S)
|
|
|
krtennyson
Northern Virginia
MH
Posts:69
|
| 04/03/2008 4:38 PM |
|
I have an e-mail out to Georgina Byrnes to verify we are correct (hopefully it gets through to her). |
|
Opinions are like @ssholes, everyone has one.
Genuine dialogue benefits everyone, getting on your soapbox is a waste of everyone's time. |
|
|
Ace1cappuccino
Carp Lake, Michigan
MH
Posts:1618
|
| 04/06/2008 8:54 PM |
|
| any luck on confirming in our question? |
|
Cornell's GSP'S- Mocha cappuccino, Lili Belle Lotte, Sir Leopold Vom Hunter 1, Lil Miss Lotte Doddi, Ace Hunter Twisted Mister(GSP'S)
|
|
|
Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:731
|
| 04/07/2008 10:20 PM |
|
Posted By krtennyson on 04/03/2008 4:38 PM
I have an e-mail out to Georgina Byrnes to verify we are correct (hopefully it gets through to her).
You might be better served to email Betsy Yates, GSPCA Judges Education, as she is the one explaining our Standard to the Judges. |
|
Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
|
|
|
krtennyson
Northern Virginia
MH
Posts:69
|
| 04/08/2008 7:34 PM |
|
Okay, so Georgina Byrnes did get back to me. She confirmed china eye as a white or mostly white eye. She was not certain on wall eye. SO....I followed up with Betsy per Bruce's suggestion, here is her response below:
Hi Ken,
First of all I think we all have to remember when our "forefathers" came up with the standard for our breed many things were just assumed like every dog needs to have a head, tail and four legs. Also, they did not have the internet to Google any questionable word. When they made China or Wall eyes a disqualification it was simply describing the color of the eye.
"Canine Terminology" by Howard Spira (the dog world's Bible for anatomy descriptions) describes Wall eye as follows:
"Incomplete flecked or spotted distribution of melanin deposits upon a blue iris background: also known as china eye, fish eye,jewelled eye, marbled eye or silver eye. Relatively common in breeds carrying the merle color gene, e.g. Collie, Cardigan Welsh Corgi, etc., this syndrome may occur in either one or both eyes of any given individual."
I am interested to know if anyone in your discussion has ever seen a wall of china eye in a GSP. In my 34 years breeding, owning, showing and judging GSPs I have never seen a Shorthair with this eye color. I did see a picture of a pup who supposedly kept the eye color in adulthood.
Hope this helps.
Betsy
The long and short of it...a number of folks were correct that china eye = wall eye = eye color that is white, white speckled, or pale blue eye. Eye alignment is ruled out. Whew....now we have some definitive answers for the first ever GSP trivia game that I plan to patent! ![<img src=]() " src="/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/blue/emoticons/smile.gif" />
|
|
Opinions are like @ssholes, everyone has one.
Genuine dialogue benefits everyone, getting on your soapbox is a waste of everyone's time. |
|
|
Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:731
|
| 04/10/2008 11:05 PM |
|
I thought you might find Betsy to be of great help.
The reason the Germans could not fathom the idea of seeing "Wall eyes" in the breed was because there had/has never been any crosses that included any of the breeds where it might be possible, particularly breeds that come in Harlequin, Merle or Dappled colorations. |
|
Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
|
|
|
Wagonmaster
SH
Posts:43
|
| 04/17/2008 11:55 AM |
|
In horses, wall or china eyes can happen if the animal has a blaze on its face that is wide enough to include the eyes. Then the eyes become white (china) or sometimes mottled. This is fairly common in horses that are "bald" or "baldfaced," meaning the front of the head is white or there is a very wide blaze covering most of the fact. My son takes riding lessons on a half Clydesdale that is baldfaced and therefore white eyed. Not totally sure of this with dogs, as I have never seen a GSP (or GWP) with a wide enough blaze, but I do believe the china or wall eyes could be produced without there being a hybridization. |
|
|
|
|
Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:731
|
| 04/18/2008 12:38 AM |
|
I believe I have seen pix of what you describe John and the white eyes are kinda eerie looking on a horse.
I'm not sure "blazes" would be the accurate term, but I've seen some pretty broad "blazes" on some Shorthairs of pretty notable breeding that wrapped completely out over the head and down over the eye/side of their face and they had normal darker eyes. These dogs quite literally had head coloration of half liver and half white or roaned. Incidentally, these dogs always seem to bring up discussions of "White Factor Blindness/Deafness" as is associated with certain breeds like the Dal's.
|
|
Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
|
|
|