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Jason
JH
Posts:23
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| 04/15/2010 8:49 PM |
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Flash, all the dogs I've seen have had a whiteish color nail but more opaque. All of the nails are the same color as well. Oh hell, you opened yourself up to a new fire storm by bringing up NSTRA on here! LMAO!!! What region do you belong to, I have friends in high and low places!  |
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Flash01
SH
Posts:56
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| 04/16/2010 5:56 AM |
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Whats wrong with NSTRA? |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4450
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| 04/16/2010 6:25 AM |
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Some research I have done in the last few years on this subject:
Sex linked recessive inheritence says an affected daughter has to have an affected father.
Autosomal recessive inheritence says two unaffected dogs can produce affected and unaffected sons and daughters.
If it's sex linked recessive then the characteristic pattern is 2 unaffected can produce affected sons but not daughters.
The pedigres would have to be carefully researched and have the dogs noted who would be genotypically affected but are not phenotypically affected.
The degree of penetrance can't be determined if the dominance and recessive is not known and we can't know the dominance and recessive if the degree of penetrence is not known.
Francine
here is a good artilce :
It says "basic" but they lie
http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/genetics/BasGen4.html
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Jason
JH
Posts:23
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| 04/16/2010 9:08 AM |
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| Flash, I love it! I've run a few times. lol I've even been up to your neck of the woods for a trial or two. |
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Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:731
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| 04/17/2010 12:24 PM |
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Posted By briarpatch on 04/14/2010 12:46 PM
Sure, I will explain it better although i have covered it before ..
No genecists in the world will tell you 100% for sure the little e is not found in GSP's ..why they cannot tell you that for sure is because all the founding dogs that made up the breed were not DNAed, heck they dont even know what all the founding breeds were ..
So the little e very well can be found in the breed.
Why do people claim it cant be is because it has not been found in liver and white gsp's that have been tested that we know of which is the standards colors..This certainly doesnt mean its not in any of them they all would have to be tested to find out .. or all the original founding dogs in the breed would have to be tested which is impossible as noneone knows what the original breeds even consisted of completely we can assume certain breeds were used by looking at and comparing photos but in the begining of this breeds making people bred their best pointing dogs and hounds to create a breed that would do it all and they used all types of pointers and hounds and even some flushers ..to make a breed that would do all types of hunting..
To say this wasnt used is nonscence or that wasnt used .. the best historians of the breed dont know 100% what was used as it was a free for all in the earliest days of the breed until the breed was established and even after it was established there were many different breeds added to the stud book even those who some claim were unpure americanized gsp's were added at one time to the DK so how can they be pure ..
then after the breed was established the black EP was introduced again.. but I dont know what picutres anyone could be looking at and say for certain the ep wasnt used I looked at lots of very vintage pictures and many times it is quite obvious the ep was used in the original make up .. this is the dog added for speed and yes it was re-added with the black ep but that dont make it the only time it was added ..
The little e is a myth noone knows what alles are found in the breed , too many breeds in the original make up to know.. ask a genetics lab they will tell ya they cant tell 100% if a dog is or is not a GSP by DNA you may work it out of them though as they want you to spend money on their tests ..even though their tests actually prove nothing conclusive..
Dennis
Please provide supported and Peer Reviewed documentation to support your claim, as Danish Geneticist and Canine Geneticist Dr. Ojvind Winge, seems to disagree with your stance in his books, starting with "Inheritance in Dogs with Special Reference to Hunting Breeds".
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Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
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Flash01
SH
Posts:56
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| 04/17/2010 7:01 PM |
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Posted By briarpatch on 04/14/2010 7:46 AM
That being said I wouldnt breed that dog in the newest pictures it looks too much like an EP with its tail chopped off or a french braque perhaps it is purebred and an ole ancesters genes popped forward or perhaps its not and something crossed with it , either way it noway resembles the breed so therefore should not be bred not only is its color very odd a compeletly different color then any i have seen before and I studied this a bit, but its head has a different shape then the breed it is nowhere near proper conformation of this breed, if you want to breed EP's with its tail chopped off then just buy a couple and chop off their tails and register them correctly ..or french braques ..but if that is a gsp or not it shouldnt be bred into the genepool its a setback or a step backwards to the breed at best to reproduce a dog with that conformation.And I aint one big on conformation more so on abilities but still gotta have limits ...
Of course thats just my opinion its your dog ..
Stuff like this irritates me after re-reading it tonight. I spent the day at a field trial really studying dogs, both shorthairs and ep's. There is wide variation in the size and shape of both breeds head. For you to make such statements based upon two photos of an 11 week old pup makes any other opinions you have suspect.
You are correct about the color part though (although we gave you that one  )
Now, thats just my opinion... but I am right.
Also, I was asking about the color and its possible origins, not your permission to breed him.
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briarpatch
N.J.
MH
Posts:168
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| 04/17/2010 10:08 PM |
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Bruce,
Please provide supported and Peer Reviewed documentation to support your claim, as Danish Geneticist and Canine Geneticist Dr. Ojvind Winge, seems to disagree with your stance in his books, starting with "Inheritance in Dogs with Special Reference to Hunting Breeds".
I haven't read the book you refer too and you didnt give a direct quote from the book to show us what tyour refering to, but you can bet I will add it to my library, but it is easily enough to prove what I am saying call any DNA Lab in the world and ask them can they prove a gsp is a gsp by the liitte e being preseant or not..
Or by any other DNA tests available today , 100 % prove that a dog is or is not a GSP by what alles are present..
There is no such test that proves anything conclusive and DNA experts cannot say for sure what DNA they would or should find in the breed because they dont know all the dogs that made up the breed so therefore cannot say for certain the little e should or should not be present in the breed it very well may be found in a small percentage of the breed or it may not but nobody knows for certain how could they. All the dogs in the breed have not been tested and all the founding dogs of the breed have not been tested ..
Pretty simple to prove pick up the phone ..or email them ..Thats what I did when I was studying colours of the breed for a possible webpage on the subject and none of the DNA labs told me they could prove or disprove a dog is or is not a GSP 100% by any DNA test for the reasons I stated above of course I had to push them abit to admit that at least some of them anyway, because they were attempting to make their tests sound good so I would purchase them..
as for this from flash
Also, I was asking about the color and its possible origins, not your permission to breed him.
I believe i said this already ....
"Of course thats just my opinion its your dog"
Therefore I wasnt giving permission or not giving permission to breed I was giving you my opinion and or advise if dont want to take it... DONT its your dog.. |
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My Pups:
   
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4450
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| 04/18/2010 11:25 AM |
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Because no one really knows what breeds were used, how often,when they were used and if these mixes affect all lines anything is possible to occur in a breeding. The mere "possiblity" suggests that any litter/dog be allowed registration but excluded from the showring.
If the DK/GSP is a mix of such varied degree who is to say that "pure bred" means anything more then a dog with papers? In pure bred dogs - like begets like - but what happens when it doesn't? It is easy to claim a throw back from days long gone
as the culprit.
As much as some want to debate and question ligitimacy there are others so willing to accept what is placed before them. Any shread of hope that can prove pure breeding is accepted. Is it the breeder's reputation,the love for a particular dog, the desire to have a rare color,the desire to breed a rare color, the desire to perpetuate
regardless of acceptence?
I would like to see some sort of registration/breeding system be put in place to safe guard a breed against the perpetuation of DQs. (sorry black GSPs)
A breed will suffer some blows in the begining but what will be left are the better specimens. What better way to carry a breed forward?
Francine
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:731
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| 04/18/2010 1:22 PM |
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From Winge's book:
"THAT character which has given this Breed it's name is the short hair lying close to the body which is due to the dominant factor K. The whole breed has thus KK. Furthermore the dogs always possess EE and are therefore never red or yellow."
This said, an observation from me: I'm sure you understand what it means to "Set type" and then Breed "true to type" over "X" number of generations. While pied Pointers may or may not have been used in early development, after initial crosses were done, any pups displaying Pointer traits would have been removed from Breeding and only those displaying the desired Shorthair/DK traits would have been used to further perpetuate the Breed and those traits strengthened through LINE BREEDING AND SETTING TYPE during Breed development. Remember, line breeding truly shows you what you have behind your dogs, both GOOD and BAD. Should a promising mating pair have produced yellow or red when bred together during Breed development, they would have been removed from the gene pool as well until type was firmly fixed within the Breed to become what we know today as the Shorthair.
To give food for thought; Why do we see no truly Red Shorthairs? Especially considering that many in these times CAN'T bring themselves to Cull. And if they wouldn't cull "yellow"; Why would they choose to cull Red?
If there is a "e" within the Breed in these modern times, it would be from much more recent crosses with Pointers or Labs. |
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Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
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Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:731
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| 04/18/2010 1:36 PM |
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Also, you are addressing a suggestion that no one can identify a GSP as a GSP through Genetics, which I would find "possibly" questionable based on research completed by the Canine Genome Project. But that is an entirely different subject from this discussion, about whether the "e" does or does not exist within the Breed and best left for another topic. I believe a search of the Archives would turn that subject/topic up if there is a desire to discuss it.
I'll ask again concerning "e"; Please back up your statements concerning the "e" existing within the Breed with verifiable and Peer reviewed facts from literature, studies, etc. Otherwise, please qualify your statements as your Opinion. |
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Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
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briarpatch
N.J.
MH
Posts:168
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4450
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| 04/19/2010 5:38 AM |
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I read this a few years ago, don't know if it's outdated.
http://britainhill.com/GeneticStructure.pdf
I have posted before here and on another board about type.
There can only be one type within a breed.
But as we can clearly see - this is not so in the GSP.
Variation of height,bone,muscule,etc does not affect type.
What has happened,in my opinion, is that breeders have used
'type' to produce what they want to see in the breed, as in the fashion of the time. I was talking with an AKC GSP judge and was told about a particular dog that - "she is the old type".
What does that mean?
Isn't a show about choosing the dog that best fits type rather then balanced and pretty?
Just my opinions,
Francine |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Flash01
SH
Posts:56
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| 04/19/2010 8:21 AM |
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Posted By pixie bee on 04/18/2010 11:25 AM
I would like to see some sort of registration/breeding system be put in place to safe guard a breed against the perpetuation of DQs.
Francine
There is... it's called a DQ. The problem is ... and this is ENTIRELY MY OPINION ... is that the breed was bred for certain abilities... none of which include following around an overweight middle aged handler in fancy clothes around in a circle.
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4450
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| 04/19/2010 8:45 AM |
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I am not aware that there are registration or breeding restrictions for DQs.
Francine
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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CathyYak
MH
Posts:963
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| 04/19/2010 8:49 AM |
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There is... it's called a DQ. The problem is ... and this is ENTIRELY MY OPINION ... is that the breed was bred for certain abilities... none of which include following around an overweight middle aged handler in fancy clothes around in a circle.
How do you argue with a statement like that? There is no educating those who do not wish to be educated. The lack of verifiable information being posted on this thread is doing more harm than good to anyone reading it. I suggest the people who want to state that yellow GSPs are as possible as purebreds as black ones should bring up this subject on the GSP-l and see what answers they get there.
Cathy
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Cathy Iacopelli
Claddagh Kennels
Long Island, New York |
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Flash01
SH
Posts:56
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| 04/19/2010 9:03 AM |
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Posted By CathyYak on 04/19/2010 8:49 AM
How do you argue with a statement like that? There is no educating those who do not wish to be educated. The lack of verifiable information being posted on this thread is doing more harm than good to anyone reading it. I suggest the people who want to state that yellow GSPs are as possible as purebreds as black ones should bring up this subject on the GSP-l and see what answers they get there.
Cathy
Finally, someone with some sense. Thanks for agreeing with me Cathy. I agree it is frustrating when you are trying to figure something out and people keep just talking about something else. For example, lets say you are interested in how a dog can be of different color than is the breed standard when you believe, honestly and sincerely, that the breeding is pure. In the discussion, there are a few people being genuinely helpful and a bunch of others jumping to the conclusion that you are trying to justify breeding the pup and just keep saying.. dont breed that one or people should not be able to breed dogs like that.
I know that is a far fetched example, but it could happen... 
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CathyYak
MH
Posts:963
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| 04/19/2010 9:28 AM |
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Flash01 (did your Mother really name you that?). You misunderstand. I am not agreeing with you. As a slightly overweight middle aged handler I find your comment very offensive and ignorant. And not at all suportive of your claim to be looking for factual information regarding the genetics of purebred GSPs.
That aside, I for one, do not believe that any GSP that is not either black, liver or any combination of liver and white or black and white can be a purebred GSP. I have done my homework over many years. I've had uncountable conversations with geneticists who have an interest in GSPs specifically, and do not agree that yellow, red, silver or solid white (no other color anywhere on the dog) GSP's can exist as purebreds. And I have a real problem believing a tricolored GSP is a purebred one either. I feel that a person who has a dog outside of the accepted colors in the breed has the responsibility of proving the dog is purebred by DNA testing the previous three (minimum) generations in the pedigree. I don't feel that anyone else should be expected to accept this anomaly just because "I said so".
There are some very respected breeders on the GSP-L who can go into detail on the scientific explanation. But these people are not on these boards.
I do not have the time to sort through all of the info I have compiled to present it here. And I do not think that if I made the time you would accept it anyway. So I suggest you go on the GSP-L if you are genuinely looking for information and ask your questions there.
Cathy |
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Cathy Iacopelli
Claddagh Kennels
Long Island, New York |
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Flash01
SH
Posts:56
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| 04/19/2010 9:58 AM |
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Posted By CathyYak on 04/19/2010 9:28 AM
Flash01 (did your Mother really name you that?).
Seriously?
I feel that a person who has a dog outside of the accepted colors in the breed has the responsibility of proving the dog is purebred by DNA testing the previous three (minimum) generations in the pedigree. I don't feel that anyone else should be expected to accept this anomaly just because "I said so".
For what? to do what? register? breed? Field Trial? Show? What if I could prove three generations? What does that prove?
Keep in mind... I AM NOT PLANNING ON BREEDING THIS DOG.
The AKC says I can register him, so I will.
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CathyYak
MH
Posts:963
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| 04/19/2010 10:09 AM |
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<>
Seriously? Do you bother to find anything out about the people you are accusing before you accuse them? Try doing some homework before you type. Posts like this cast a poor light on anything else you have to say, if everything you have to say is as poorly researched and documented as this statement.
Cathy |
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Cathy Iacopelli
Claddagh Kennels
Long Island, New York |
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escampbell
MH
Posts:213
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| 04/19/2010 10:27 AM |
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This person, and quite a few others on this message board, has fought to allow black pigmented GSPs in the AKC breed ring. If you go back a few pages on this thread, you will see that I posted very clearly what I did when I got my first black ticked GSP and what I would be doing if I had a lemon/red/silver/whatever GSP.
Again, briefly, there were many who used to be convinced (in the mid 90's is when I bought my first black and whiute ticked girl) that the color came from surreptitious crosses of GSPs to Labs or Pointers. I made sure I knew the pedigree of my now senior girl inside and out. I was able to tell anyone who asked EXACTLY where the black color her color came from. (Again, through her black ticked dam's side, from a dog called Vassall Vom Niestetal, her Great Great Grandfather - excuse the bad spelling.) I knew her pedigree inside and out. Had I been able at the time, I would have DNA'd her immediately. Once I could, I did. I also DNA'd her white and liver son. And at least one of his sons has been DNA'd and a few Great Grandchildren have or will soon be DNA'd. Of course, all her descendants are liver pigmented, but my point is DNA'ing many generations is now easily done in many cases.
So, if any of these off-colored dogs were my dogs, I would DNA parents, Grandparents, Great Grandparents, siblings, etc. Then, I could answer questions and raised eyebrows with as much isolid information as I could.
The black and tan tri-colored GSPs that have appeared, I was told by a British friend, often come from the section of Holland (I think it is) where Dobes originated. There is some strong suspicion Dobes have gotten into the mix.
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Eleanor Campbell
New Jersey
Sydney, Presto, Price, Ozma and Soleil |
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