So, I went back to my dog library and pulled two of the books that are considered by many to be among the best comprehensive sources on the German Shorthair Pointer; Georgina Byrne's Der Durtsch-Kurzhaar (The German Shorthaired Pointer) and Robert H. McKowen's The New Complete German Shortaired Pointer.  In reading the sections of both books dealing with the origins of the breed (and they are consistent) a couple of things are clear:

1) No one can state definitively the exact origins of the breed.  In fact, Georgina Byrne has a complete section on "The Probable Origins of the German Shorthaired Pointer."  Robert McKowen is just as clear when he states "The one unquestioned fact about the origin of the German Shorthaired Pointer is its German development.  The ingredients that went into what has evolved into the present-day GSP are, and no doubt will remain, a mystery, since so many variables went into the creation of the breed."  So, this leaves the discussion open for reasonable speculation.  Both authors then do go on to speculate formulate conclusions based on documented facts the likely origins of the breed.

2) Both Ms. Byrne and Mr. McKowen do agree that the breed most likely has its foundation in pointing breeds and scent hounds.  The common conclusion by both was the most likely were the old Spanish Pointer (and possibly the French Pointer) and scent hound or Schweisshund (not a Bloodhound) with a strong shot of English Pointer.  There is even some discussion spent in Ms. Byrne's book about the foxhound.  Both authors present very logical and compelling arguments for their conclusions.

I would highly recommend reading either or both books as they give lots of history and examples along with references.  There are other books out there as well that are equally as good, but wanted to throw these two out as excellent sources of information.  

As for the name of the breed German Shorthaired Pointer-Retriever vs German Shorthair vs German Shorthaired Pointer vs Deustch Kurzhaar that is another discussion, but the name has an equally interesting evolution.  Again Georgina Byrne's has a great discussion of the name in her section titled "What's In a Name?"

Sure, I will explain it better although i have covered it before ..

No genecists in the world will tell you 100% for sure the little e is not found in GSP's ..why they cannot tell you that for sure is because all the founding dogs that made up the breed were not DNAed, heck they dont even know what all the founding breeds were ..

So the little e very well can be  found in the breed.

Why do people claim it cant be is because it has not been found in liver and white gsp's that have been tested that we know of which is the standards colors..This certainly doesnt mean its not in any of them they all would have to be tested to find out .. or all the original founding dogs in the breed would have to be tested which is impossible as noneone knows what the original breeds even consisted of completely we can assume certain breeds were used by looking at and comparing photos but in the begining of this breeds making people bred their best pointing dogs and hounds to create a breed that would do it all and they used all types of pointers and hounds and even some flushers ..to make a breed that would do all types of hunting..

To say this wasnt used is nonscence or that wasnt used .. the best historians of the breed dont know 100% what was used as it was a free for all in the earliest days of the breed until the breed was established and even after it was established there were many different breeds added to the stud book even those who some claim were unpure americanized gsp's were added at one time to the DK so how can they be pure .. 

then after the breed was established the black EP was introduced again.. but I dont know what picutres anyone could be looking at and say for certain the ep wasnt used I looked at lots of very vintage pictures and many times it is quite obvious the ep was used in the original make up .. this is the dog added for speed and yes it was re-added with the black ep but that dont make it the only time it was added ..

The little e is a myth noone knows what alles are found in the breed , too many breeds in the original make up to know.. ask a genetics lab they will tell ya they cant tell 100% if a dog is or is not a GSP by DNA you may work it out of them though as they want you to spend money on their tests ..even though their tests actually prove nothing conclusive..

Dennis

double post

deleted by poster

As for the discussion on coat color and pattern, Georgina Byrne's again has an excellent discussion. It is in Chapter 2 and Chapter 12 of her Der Deustche Kurzhaar book, and the chapters are titled "The History and Diversity of GSP Coat Colour and Pattern" and "Coat Colour/Patterning in Dogs, with Particular Reference to the GSP." I am not going to try to recount her discussion here, but recommend it as it has a great discussion on the coat color discussion as it relates to genetics including the four alleles at the "E" locus. Her conclusion is "It appears that the GSP carries only the "E" allele of this series. It is, however, of interest to remember that early breed history describes the original breed colours as including red. Acceptance of the Schweisshund as being an ancestor would support this, since the Schweisshund varietes include both red and brindle dogs. It is surprising, therefore, that reds or brindles do not appear in GSP litters even if only on very rare occasions."

Again, I recommend reading the whole two chapters.

Bev,
very nice posts.
I just wish the lemon/yellow issue could be solved. In a previous post I asked questions about the claims of origins. The occurance is becoming almost common place,if you need two dogs to create the color, how many dogs are carrying this gene? (assuming it is pure bred)
For the record - I can't say if it is pure or not,either can anyone else - but this is no reason for acceptence. I give the benefit of the doubt - to some dogs. B/c the EP was used in the GSP by FTers, this may be coming from solely the GSP.
My point in this debate is that this may very well be solely a GSP issue. In which case, the GSP needs to be looked at closely and what will be accepted as a standard. If it is decided this is a true color then the standard will have to be re-written to accept this.

Francine
 

Francine,

I am going to register the crap out of my lemon GSP. I am then going to email you the papers. I am going to compete in every event I can with him. If he wins anything, I will pass that news along to you as well.

I came to this site with a question... How can this dog, which I sincerely believe to be a pure GSP be this color? In your obsessive defensiveness about your DK breed, you have been unhelpful and, well, unpleasant.

I am not a GSP expert, nor have I claimed to be one (other than to quote obvious stuff). I have been involved with the breed for four years. My wife and I love the dogs and have committed a great deal of time, money and effort into providing a great life for the (now three) dogs we love.  I am NOT a breeder, nor am I planning on breeding my oddly colored guy (which I made clear early on).

Thanks for all the help from the non-delusional folks on this site. I have emailed a couple of you and I will work to try to figure out what this is.  I hope to find answers to how my dog can be this color.

Posted By pixie bee on 04/14/2010 1:37 PM

What bothers me is showing the DQ colors is restricted but not registering,field testing or breeding. It's like the door is being left open a crack.

Francine




Francine,

I am going to register the crap out of my lemon GSP. I am then going to email you the papers. I am going to compete in every event I can with him. If he wins anything, I will pass that news along to you as well.

I came to this site with a question... How can this dog, which I sincerely believe to be a pure GSP be this color? In your obsessive defensiveness about your DK breed, you have been unhelpful and, well, unpleasant.

I am not a GSP expert, nor have I claimed to be one (other than to quote obvious stuff). I have been involved with the breed for four years. My wife and I love the dogs and have committed a great deal of time, money and effort into providing a great life for the (now three) dogs we love. I am NOT a breeder, nor am I planning on breeding my oddly colored guy (which I made clear early on).

Thanks for all the help from the non-delusional folks on this site. I have emailed a couple of you and I will work to try to figure out what this is. I hope to find answers to how my dog can be this color."


The above is a post by Flash01 that is quite hostile toward me.
I believe this is a misunderstanding by Flash01.
This was not an attack on his dog.
It is well known that black is considered a DQ color and yet they are permitted to enter all field events and excluded from showing.

My statement about DQ colors refers to the fact that the DQ colors should have full status or nothing. The colors are recognized but not recognized. I would like the
standard to be definitive in regards to DQ colors.

Francine 
 

Two.

 

EVERY litter I know of boorn like this has had exactly 2 pups in it.

The sad thing is we can sit and listen to all the smack talk and how everyone knows this and that but it's all opinion.  If any of you think there is a way to actually prove the validity of these dogs please let me know!  Flash, your dog is still young but what color are it's toenails???

Clear. (one might describe it as white)