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RyanGSP
MH
Posts:430
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| 02/28/2010 8:31 PM |
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| Like I said another arguement for another thread but I will leave saying this. Irish Setter and Golden Retriever. |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7846
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| 02/28/2010 9:07 PM |
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| First, since this is a GSP Forum I think we should keep the discussion centered on GSPs. Second I would still like to see the facts to back up this statement "The show ring has ruined far more GSPs and other breeds of dogs than the field lines has or would have." Not interested in the "other breeds," but would love to see the facts on this statement with regard to GSPs. Go ahead and start another thread and please share these facts as I am sure there are many interested in this info. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
   
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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Jason
JH
Posts:23
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| 02/28/2010 9:52 PM |
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Rather than start another thread pleas discuss things in the topics involved in the thread. Any questions I can answer I will be glad too. Sandy, the one I own is out of a litter from a select male and female that throws 2 pups every time they are mated. The first time it happened the owners questioned the validity of the breeding and kept it quiet. I have picks of the origional pups posted on an earlier therad. Sandy was a pup from a repeat breeding to confirm the outcome of the original breeding. Since I have obtained this pup I have noted others around the US that have come under scroutiny as well. I have contacted them and discussed coat color, nail color and markings. All of wich are mostly the same reguardless of which litter they are from. My pup shares similar bloodlines to a set of pups in the northern US but it's 7 generations back. All dogs have a roan like coat and every picture taken can be missleading because untill you see them in person they never look the same. It's not a yellow color and I'm not really sure how to discribe it other than cinamon. The dogs have areas of patching but where it's not patched it's a roan type color. ALL OF THE DOGS have a dark tan set of nails. ALL dogs have normal eyes. NO other breed influx would cause roaning like these dogs have, I don't think??? My dog and one of another prodigy has been parentage varified but that's all I've done with my pup. I know one other went through the ringer with DNA testing and was passed by NAVDA. Two pups from another litter have been kept quiet up north and the owners are more afraid of what some of you are saying than it's worth of them. One other thing, 70% of all of these dogs are males. Only 3 females have been produced and one was killed by a car last year. Coat patterns of the parents of these dogs in all three cases I know of are all different. My pups litter is from a liver and white dog mixed with a ticked and patched dog. One other breeding is from two ticked and patched dogs. and the other is from a solid liver and solid black dog. Every picture I take of Sandy shows an different color to her. If you guys and girls can explain how a dog like mine can hunt SOOOOO GOOD and look like she does mixed with any other breed to produce such coat pattern then you're better than me! No pointer influx or any other pointing breed would caus the roaning pattern and solid nails on all 4 feet all of these dogs have. |
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escampbell
MH
Posts:213
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| 03/01/2010 3:11 PM |
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To answer Francine's Question, I doubt the "white" (not to be confused with a clear white dog with a liver or liver and blazed head) coloration would ever be allowed in the breed ring. It has never been accepted anywhere as a legitimate GSP color. Heck, black IS a legitimate breed color and we cannot even get that color accepted in the AKC breed ring. But the difference between the colors, is that black is a legitimate, historically correct GSP color. The "white" (cinnamon) is not.
And to respond to some of Jason's statements up above. Recessive genes do float around for many generations only to reappear. That can happen. It would be well worth someone's time to have some discussions with geneticists and Pointer folks about breed colors. Pointers come in many, many colors and patterns. But doing some genetic testing for the "e" would also be prudent if many more of these breedings are planned. And it certainly would not be unheard of that these pups all look somewhat different, yet have similar characteristics.
And a pointing breed dog crossed to another breed of pointing dog or one pointing breed mixed with another way back could indeed be a good field dog, same as a purebred.
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Eleanor Campbell
New Jersey
Sydney, Presto, Price, Ozma and Soleil |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 03/02/2010 7:01 AM |
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If the color is proven or not so proven yet plausable, as we have seen so far - the AKC has registered this color - it is accepted,then there will eventually be a patition to aknowledge the color as a true GSP color.
In 2010 there are 10, breedings are still occuring with the original producing pairs and breedings are being considered by the puppy buyers,how many will there be in 2025?
I'll wait the 15 years and see what happens. Very scary.
Francine |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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escampbell
MH
Posts:213
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| 03/02/2010 9:03 AM |
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Just to clarify, as I get asked if my two black and white girls can be AKC registered, which of course they can and are, even though the color is a DQ in the AKC breed ring: the AKC does not "register" colors. It registeres a pure-bred dog. That pure-bred dog can have a disqualifying fault. Many, many examples abound. In no way, does this mean the AKC (or the the breed parent club) is approving the color.
As an aside, I should note that the UKC does NOT allow any dogs with disqualifying faults to be registered. Hence, it was not until the UKC allowed the color in January 2007, that Sydney (my 13-year old) could be UKC registered. The UKC does allow dogs with DQ's to get a listing number. The dog MUST be spayed/neutered before it can get a listing number.
My oldest Sheltie is oversized (Shelties must measure between 13" and 16" or they are DQ'd from the AKC and UKC breed ring and every other breed ring on the planet) and he is AKC registered. He was also sold to me with a neutering requirement and he is neutered. Shelties with mainly white bodies are also DQ'd, but they do appear and may be AKC registered.
I have a friend who has a white Boxer, also a DQ (and they used to be culled) and it is AKC registered, and of course, spayed. Golden Retrievers are not supposed to have white on them, but some do and are registered. Parti-colored poodles are absolutely DQ'd from the breed ring in AKC, but they are also AKC registered and I see quite a few in obedience and agility.
My point is that every breed has DQ's which can appear. Are these the result of recessive genes or long-ago inadvertent or deliberate crosses to other breeds? Regardless, these anomalies appear. And just because they appear, that does not make them desirable breed characteristics. Oversized Shelties appear frequently, and have for years and years, but the Sheltie breed standard has remained firm that 13'-16" is the correct size for a Sheltie and over and undersized are DQ'd. So, acknowledging that anomalous dogs can appear does not mean taht characteristic will become acceptable or accepted.
As long as these dogs are pure-bred to the best that current DNA practices can determine, they may be AKC registered. |
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Eleanor Campbell
New Jersey
Sydney, Presto, Price, Ozma and Soleil |
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RyanGSP
MH
Posts:430
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| 03/02/2010 10:23 AM |
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What I love is how the breed ring doesnt set if a dog can or cant be registered and its a good thing otherwise there would be far less black GSP`s around I think.
My next question is lets skip ahead "X" number of years when black GSP's are allowed in the breed ring. How long will it be before they are not scrutinized against and judged on the same level as a liver dog? I have a feeling that even though they will be allowed in the breed ring its not going to be an easy task to beat a liver dog because of color.
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escampbell
MH
Posts:213
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| 03/02/2010 11:25 AM |
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Of course, black pigmented GSPs should be judged against the breed standard, just as liver pigmented GSPs are. They should be scrutinized exactly the same.
Will there be judges with biases? Of course, just as you see now, but I have been pleasantly surprised in the UKC breed ring, by how little the color has mattered. UKC is not AKC and numbers are much smaller, but I know there are at least three black and white UKC show champions. Two of them have Grand Champion wins. My own youngster also has two Best in Multi Breed Show wins.
No GSP is perfect, and I am aware of my own girl's shortcomings, but, as far as I can see, in UKC at least, the black dogs have been winning and losing on their own merits.
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Eleanor Campbell
New Jersey
Sydney, Presto, Price, Ozma and Soleil |
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briarpatch
N.J.
MH
Posts:168
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| 03/02/2010 2:19 PM |
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In 2010 there are 10, breedings are still occuring with the original producing pairs and breedings are being considered by the puppy buyers,how many will there be in 2025?
I'll wait the 15 years and see what happens. Very scary
There are alot more then 10 of these dogs white/ cinamin out there I dont know where this number came from I talked with several of the owners in thought of making a page of all the GSP colors and there are numerous breeders who have these dogs and several are breeding for more. Some are doing it very quietly for fear of harrassment from people against the color, but I can tell you this there will be more in years to come.
I also have seen pics of several different colors many are the cinamin color, some bright white like my cals white patches , at least one a yellowish tan very like a lab.
But in the thoughts of purity what makes everyone so sure a liver and white or black and white gsp is a pure gsp and these odd colors if you will are not.
the history of the breed that we know of is somewhat a mystery as to who mixed what with what. We do know is english pointers were in the history, the old spanish pointer was in there many historians have suggested the Hanoverian Schweisshund was in the mix and used older pictures of dk's to show the resemblances, prince solms owned a large setter kennel as well I believe I read so chances are some setters are in the mix, there were several weims listed in the registry book I read so chances are they are in the mix as well and everyone basically bred the best hunting dogs into the mix, in attempts to get the versatile dog that could do it all fur,feather on land and in water that we refer to as the GSP or DK of today
so what makes anyone believe that liver and white or black and white is the only right colors of a purebred gsp heck with all those dogs in the mix of the original make up of the breed i am surprised we aint seen a purple one yet .
I highly doubt any geneticist is going to be much help as some have suggested in what are the proper colors of a pure gsp that we should expect to see are. As we dont even know for certain all the original breeds that went into the makeup of the gsp. many genes are recessive and can reappear years and litters later when crossed with another recessive gene. If most of the odd colors were culled years ago there siblings would still carry the recessive genes of the odd color. Their great great great great great grandchilden when crossed could still produce the odd color. If fanciers of the odd color then breed for it with other known odd colored pups who obviously carry the recessive gene the color will then flurish and after many generations will no longer be seen as a odd color but just another color of the gsp same as once was the case with large white patched gsps..
History repeats itself
someone made the comment you dont see odd colors coming from show lines, I would imagine a few in the show world have seen them as well in their litters but either kept them quiet or culled them as most from the show world aint gonna want a pup with the recessive genes to create such a serious fault such as odd color pups in the future they surely wouldnt want you to know your new show prospect puppy carries such a disasterous gene or that its littermate was a white or cinamin, you can almost bet they would be quickly hidden or culled as well. as i said before lets be realistic you got a show CH. producing off colors or disqualifing faults who would you want to tell or advertise that to?
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My Pups:
   
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 03/02/2010 3:01 PM |
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I mentioned in a previous post about why have these colors popped up so suddenly?
Seems like they are a clever cross then some gene from way back when.
the germans bred to the solid black Arkwright Pointer the Americans bred to the EP,in secret. Do you really think a Weim from way back when could be popping up now? Sorry, I just don't buy it and you know what - no one can prove it - pretty clever
don't cha think?
I at lesst have some faith in what Eleanor posted.
Francine
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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briarpatch
N.J.
MH
Posts:168
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escampbell
MH
Posts:213
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| 03/02/2010 5:51 PM |
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so what makes anyone believe that liver and white or black and white is the only right colors of a purebred gsp heck with all those dogs in the mix of the original make up of the breed i am surprised we aint seen a purple one yet .
Because as well as developing a versatile hunting dog, the originators of the breed were developing a particular breed: the German Shorthaired Pointer (called the Deutsch Kurzhaar in German.) And so, over time, there was a breed standard developed in which liver pigment and black pigment in combination with white (in the 1930's once the Prussian Shorthair and German Shorthair studbooks were combined - I hope I stated that accurately) was identified as the correct breed coloration in the German Standard.
This does not mean that, in any pure breed of dog, pups in colors other than those desired cannot occur. They can, do and will. Nor does it necessarily mean that a "cinnamon" GSP is not as purebred as a liver or black pigmented GSP, but it does mean that it is not a correct color for the breed.
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Eleanor Campbell
New Jersey
Sydney, Presto, Price, Ozma and Soleil |
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briarpatch
N.J.
MH
Posts:168
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| 03/06/2010 6:44 AM |
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This does not mean that, in any pure breed of dog, pups in colors other than those desired cannot occur. They can, do and will. Nor does it necessarily mean that a "cinnamon" GSP is not as purebred as a liver or black pigmented GSP, but it does mean that it is not a correct color for the breed.
The Breed Standard for the Pointer says that a good pointer cannot be a bad color
How many times does history need to repeat itself in our breed before GSP owners realize this as well holds true to the GSP as well a versatile hunting dog cannot be a bad color as well , the blacks weren't accepted in germany years ago as a correct color and then were adopted as a correct color in later years they still arent a "correct color" in the USA . Dogs with large white patches were at one time in germany considered not a correct color by many influential breeders now today they are widely accepted.
when are GSP owners and breeders going to realize what pointer owners realized years ago
breeding for color in the gsp even a supposedly correct color does the breed a disservice you very well could be keeping the best the breed has to offer in hunting abilities out of the gene pool by doing so
The Breed Standard for the Pointer says that a good pointer cannot be a bad color
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My Pups:
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 03/06/2010 7:16 AM |
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Isn't one way of ensuring pure breeding thru color and coat pattern?
How can a breed guarentee pure breeding if any color and coat pattern is accepted?
Is it as easy as docking or not docking the tail?
How accepting would the pointer enthusiasts be is a brindle pointer showed up at a FT?
Francine
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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CathyYak
MH
Posts:963
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| 03/06/2010 9:47 AM |
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Why don't we just accept any part of any other breed's standard and use it to validate cross breeding in GSP's? Seriously, why would anyone think that the Pointer standard should be interchangeable with the GSP standard? Why not the Spinoni standard or the Brittany standard? Becasue it would be harder to get away with crossbreedig to long haired dogs? I just can't understand it!!!! Problem is, too many non show people don't care if a dog is cross bred as long as it finds birds and wins ribbons. THAT is what hurts our breed way more than any show person could possibly do. You know what, I know a guy on LI who hunts his GSP with his Dobe, doesn't make it a GSP because is finds birds does it?
What is wrong with people expecting registered GSPs to be 100% GSPs? Is that too much to ask? And black and white GSP's are just as likely to be PUREBRED GSP's as liver and white ones, so please stop trying to highjack the discussion on an acceptable GSP color by clouding the water with obvious cross bred dogs. I don't care what anyone on this board says, geneticists with verifiable credentials tell me that a purebred GSP with be liver and white, solid liver, black and white or solid black. NO OTHER COLOR. So until you can find a geneticist with verifiable credentials to prove that your cinnaon, white or lemon dog is a purebred GSP, please stop telling us they are not cross bred.
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Cathy Iacopelli
Claddagh Kennels
Long Island, New York |
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RyanGSP
MH
Posts:430
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| 03/06/2010 12:14 PM |
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Noone is saying we need to mix breed standards with the GSP's but your so hard against colors you missed the point he was trying to make. SO why dont you take a second, step back from the computer, take a deep breath, reread what he said and put some thought into it. If you need to I will spell it out for you so you can understand.
Also I was once in the same mind frame as you about the FT dogs and their breedings but really its not like that. Some maybe but those generally arent the guys that are having problems in the trials its generally the ones the need to add a little kick to their lines because they are loosing. Truth is Most FT dogs are just as pure as Most show dogs, notice the most in there, and to say otherwise is just lack of knowledge.
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CathyYak
MH
Posts:963
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| 03/06/2010 12:20 PM |
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| Why don't you spell it out for me then Ryan. |
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Cathy Iacopelli
Claddagh Kennels
Long Island, New York |
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RyanGSP
MH
Posts:430
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| 03/06/2010 3:52 PM |
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| A G O O D D O G C A N T B E A B A D C O L O R. |
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escampbell
MH
Posts:213
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| 03/06/2010 4:39 PM |
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Maybe a good dog cannot be a bad color (actually, I would argue that point: think albino) BUT, a good purebred dog CAN be a bad color.
If someone wants to develop a "generic pointing dog," I imagine it could be any color, coat length or type, and it could come a wide range of sizes. But a pure-bred GSP is not a "generic pointing dog" nor is it a Pointer, a Vizsla, a Braco Italiano, a German Wirehair, nor any one of the various, relatively unknown (in this country) European pointing breeds.
In Europe, there were various pointing breeds developed to do somewhat similar work in different countries. Although some may look similar, they are distinct breeds, have different coats, come in different colors and sizes, depending upon the breed.
The German Shorthaired Pointer was developed as a versatile breed, yes, but it was also developed as a dsitinct breed, with an eye towards a "look." Black pigment was not introduced because a black pup appeared and someone liked it, it was introduced, according to the literature I have read, for both the purpose of "nose" and also to improve pigment. The developers of our breed were concerned about ability, of course, but also about how the breed looked. That is true of any breed, whether we agree with it or not.
It is very disheartening for people like myself, who own black GSPs, to be told that since we want to alllow black, then we should allow any color. That simply does not jive with the hisory of the breed.
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Eleanor Campbell
New Jersey
Sydney, Presto, Price, Ozma and Soleil |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 03/06/2010 4:53 PM |
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As long as that color falls within the standard,that is.
Is that what you mean Ryan and Briarpatch?
I like a standard and I like to follow a standard.I like having Breed warden. I like breeding standards. That's why I have a DK. Maybe there are some 'not correct' dogs born but you know what, they are excluded from the system. You know why? It's about following a standard of excellence.
It doesn't matter if the dog is conformationally correct or the best hunter that ever was and will be. It is NOT correct and WILL be excluded.Heck,if a dog is missing the wrong tooth it's excluded,never mind yellow colored.The German system is not about the breeders,it's about the breed.And that's why I'm a member.
But,that's just me.
Francine
Just the way I see things
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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