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escampbell
MH
Posts:213
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| 02/22/2010 11:35 AM |
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Obviously, above, the first acronym should read, "AKC."
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Eleanor Campbell
New Jersey
Sydney, Presto, Price, Ozma and Soleil |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
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| 02/22/2010 12:10 PM |
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I won't pretend that everything that is written is true, I believe 100% that DKs are pure bred for not only 5 genrations but to the begining when crosses were no longer needed to create and improve.
What is important is the pure bred factor.
Francine |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:731
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| 02/22/2010 8:27 PM |
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Cathy,
I'm sure that is what the German's thought of the Recessive White in Shorthairs as well. We see all kinds of things come up with Line Breeding; Do we not? Lupoid used to be referred to as the "German Grunge" I believe; When do you suppose the last time was that it was seen in this Country prior to the most recent cases we have been seeing in the Breed? Or in Germany for that matter? That particular reply from the other Forum was corroborated with Patte when the subject came up originally on that Forum, if you would like to verify the info. I've already provided the reference's in the quote.
Should it be bred? Emphatically NO! That is my opinion though. Recessive or not, pure bred or not, that is not a Shorthair color as recognized here, or in the Country of origin and should be removed from the Breeding Pool IMO.
Pixie,
To your 1st question about can any color carry this recessive? Direct quote:
"Also direct quote from his book is the litter referenced by Georgina
which I mentioned above. "Finally, in brown dogs, both a darker brown
and a lighter brown, presumably a recessive shade, are found. The
gene Z, so named by Steiger(1936), is found in nearly all Shorthairs.
If it is lacking and zz occurs, the brown coat is modified to a
cinnamon color. Thus, in the offspring of 90368 Freja of
Helhoejgaard(brown) and 64829 Flok (brown-speckled with brown
markings) nine brown and two cinnamon-colored puppies occurred."
As to DK's being pure all the way back? Here is just 1 example from "The Complete German Shorthaired Pointer" by Seiger and Dewitz-Colpin regarding Mars Altenau from page 99, paragraph 2:
"The pedigree indicates "Rino Pfaffendorf" 519 K as the grandsire of "Fatme Altenau" 68 P, the dam of "Mars".That is wrong. Not "Rino Pfaffendorf" 519 K, but a good working Pointer covered the beautiful "Elfriede v.d.Hardt" 96 W and sired "Hassan Altenau" 712 K, who was the grandsire of "Mars Altenau".
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Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
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Jason
JH
Posts:23
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| 02/22/2010 11:21 PM |
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Hey guys and girls, I have been looking over this and it seems it's a thread revisited yet again. I personally knoew of 3 breeding pairs that throw this unusual coat patern and all 3 don't share similar breeding. I can answer any questions you might have for me on the pup I own and the litter she's from. The most unusual thing when looking at ALL of these dogs is that the coat pattern is the same reguardless of which litter they are from! All have a pinkish/light brown skin with white splotches, similar to a normal GSP. ALL have tan nails! One litter is from a solid black dog crossed by a solid liver dog. Mine is out of a liver and white crossed to a ticked and patched female. All have been parented DNA'd! I've been over this time and again and seen people slamed into the ground. Everyone wants to blame this coat patern on a pointer influx but nothing about this coloring has anything to do with a pointer! It's just damn unusual! As far as breeding goes........I'm sure there are 99% of you out there that think this dog should never be breed! I agree to a point but if this dog keeps doing what she's doing and excells at it like she is I have NO ISSUES breeding her! You guys want to scream about purity of the breed but these dogs are the fastest form of genitig mutations humans deal with!
Jason |
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Jason
JH
Posts:23
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| 02/22/2010 11:32 PM |
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encase you couldn't pull up the FB link I'll post a link to the pics
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=107&id=1769911629&l=a96eb17239
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=170&id=1769911629&l=fbb5252fdc
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=122&id=1769911629&l=b9a5c1db16
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=167&id=1769911629&l=c84f918dfb |
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CathyYak
MH
Posts:963
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| 02/23/2010 6:07 AM |
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Sorry Jason, someone is pulling someone's leg. Might not be the parents of your dog, but somewhere in the woodpile something is not right. And a solid liver or a solid black can come from crossing a vizsla and a gsp, by the way. Just an example of where your cinnamon color could be coming from. But there is no way I will believe any pink or yellow dog is a GSP without, as I said, at least three generations of DNA, done by someone other than the people responsiible for producing these dogs. Anyone can swab a dog and say it is from another.
If you want a GSP, get a GSP, if you want top build a better mousetrap, go ahead, but don't pollute the breed by breeding dogs that cannot be GSPs and registering them as such. |
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Cathy Iacopelli
Claddagh Kennels
Long Island, New York |
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briarpatch
N.J.
MH
Posts:168
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| 02/23/2010 6:27 AM |
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I won't pretend that everything that is written is true, I believe 100% that DKs are pure bred for not only 5 genrations but to the begining when crosses were no longer needed to create and improve.
What is important is the pure bred factor.
Francine
Francine,
you know I love ya to death and am a huge fan of the DK but what makes you so sure DK breeders are so honest about the purity of their animals, know one knows what another does behind the barn in any country, besides that the entire breed originally was made up from crossbreeding different breeds there really is no purebred GSP or DK the breed was still being developed not really that long ago into the early 1900's , why dont ya see odd colors in the DK I am sure they have them but I am also sure they get culled before the breed warden comes to inspect the litter because if I understand it correctly in germany the entire litter cannot be registered if a pup from the litter doesnt look like a DK , so i am sure if a DK breeder has 10 normal colored pups and 2 that they think is odd colored then the odd colored pups disappears very quickly and quietly before the breed warden comes over so the other 10 can be sold
lets be realistict who would want to loose 7000 euro because a couple pups were odd colored dunk em and nobody would be the wiser then you could sell the rest of the litter..
Perhaps there has been a later influx of other breeds to some american lines one will never be certain as there once were pointers in the original make up of the breed it could just be some american breeders bred towards the traits they liked and the dogs developed to look more like pointers over the years I have also seen many a DK picture that resembled pointer characteristicts as well perhaps they as well had a later influx of pointer genes , truth is noone will ever know for certain, and it would be impossilbe in most dogs to dna test back 3 or 5 generations to learn anything and it still wouldnt prove anything if someone DNAed 3 generations and it came out all 3 were from the stated parents someone would then yell test back 5 and if that was possible and it still showed no outcrosses then someone would yell test back 8 generations truth is until everyone DNA's all their dogs for decades to come, this debate in our breed will continue for generations to come whenever a dog is born with a dishface or an odd color ...
white and liver was at one time a bit rare in germany and considered by many to be a color that didnt blend with the forest. large white patches stick out like a sore thumb in a green and brown forest and there were some breeders that attempted to destroy that color but there were some that liked the dogs with their large white patches and continued to breed for them and the ones who attempted to destroy the whites couldnt elliminate them from their own lines as white being recessive kept popping back up now today we have many white and liver dogs and noone considers them rare any more.
I think in America where there are no breed wardens you are going to see more and more cinamins and tri's over the years to come, and in 50 years or so it will be no big deal to see what is called an odd colored GSP today just as was the case with the somewhat rare large white patched dogs in germany years ago..
and just for common knowledge I dont own a rare colored dog and dont want to own one. I dont even own a not so rare anymore black dog as of yet..
I read up on the subject a bit in considering doing a web page on the subject of all the GSP colors and talked to a few breeders who breed cinamin or solid white gsps in thoughts of perhaps creating a page and using some of their photos for it, but decided to not pursue the page creation but in my search for information for the page found solid whites or cinamins coming from many different breeders and many different lines which leads me to believe at least some are not from crossbreeding to a newer influx of other breeds but is more probably a recessive gene that a few people at least liked the rarity of it and decided to continue to breed for it.
As others said before breeding strickly for color especially an odd color does the breed a diservice and we should be breeding for the best the breed has to offer in hunting abilities is my personal opinion no matter the color ..
of course my personal opinions dont count for much
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My Pups:
   
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
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| 02/23/2010 7:43 AM |
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Is nothing sacred! 
Can't trust the church,can't trust the gov't,can't trust breeders -
  
I believe in 5 generations to prove pure breeding. That goes back far enough for me.
Of course, since we can't trust any breeder and pedigree,what difference does it make?
Guess I'll just have to start my own breeding program.
Francine |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
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| 02/23/2010 7:46 AM |
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Talking about Viszlas. I saw a picture of one that was way to dark,I thought, for a Viszla and I also thought the dog looked less like a V and more like a.....
well, you know.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:731
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| 02/27/2010 5:26 AM |
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| Hmmmm, This got eerily quiet. Been a good discussion so far. Anyone care to talk about which locus/alleles are responsible for which odd colors? :-D |
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Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
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Jason
JH
Posts:23
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| 02/27/2010 7:12 PM |
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| I'm not trying to pick a fight but it seems it's easier for everyone to blame it on a breeder rather than actually discuss the facts and possibilities. If it was a cross back in there somewhere then how are all 10 dogs I know of, out of three different breeding pairs, all marked in the same way? |
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Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:731
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| 02/28/2010 7:04 AM |
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Jason,
In many to perhaps most cases where Yellow or White GSP's are produced from a breeding currently, it's more than likely that the breeder was not even aware there may have been Pointer in the woodpile several generations back. The only thing the current breeder may be guilty of, is not knowing his lines well enough to know that certain lines containing certain past Sires may throw yellow or white, when doubled up on. I suspect this is why some of those that are knowledgable with some of those lines, are doing the Vetgen Test for Hidden Coat Colors before breeding, namely looking for the little "e" allele on the gene locus "Extension".
In the case of the Cinnamon, I'm not convinced it isn't a gene mutation, as I have to wonder what Breed when bred to a Shorthair would produce Cinnamon pups? It's certainly not a Pointer color...
I also have to give a great deal of weight to the findings of a Geneticist, whom shows how inheritable factors are passed through the generations and how they may apparently disappear, only to show up later.
I also suspect Briarpatch is on the money with his thoughts that Breeders whom would produce such a color(Cinnamon), would quickly "cull" those pups to hide such a fault; particularly in the DK world where if a DK produces such a fault twice, they are removed from the breeding pool.
That said, I still wouldn't breed a Cinnamon and I have my reasoning, but 1st I have to ask; Does your pup have light colored eyes? and Have you noticed any tendency of your pup to be more sensitive to intense Sun, or sunburning?
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Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
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CathyYak
MH
Posts:963
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| 02/28/2010 7:18 AM |
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Funny how these odd colors never come out of showdogs isn't it? Yet only the show dogs are being penalized in regard to black. Obviously it would not benefit show people to crossbreed. Although I have seen some lines with earily pointer-ish heads and size...
But I just love it when the innocent are punished because of the gulity, who never follow the rules anyway.
And Jason, if you have DNA on those ten or so yellow, white or red dogs and their parents (grandparents would also be done if the people involved wanted to prove they are purebred), pedigrees and photos I would be happy to take a stab at what happened. With the help of a geneticist friend of course. |
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Cathy Iacopelli
Claddagh Kennels
Long Island, New York |
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escampbell
MH
Posts:213
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| 02/28/2010 2:18 PM |
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I looked at the photos of the "white" GSP on the links above. I have seen white Dobes and the color fading seems very similar. Like the GSP pictured, the white Dobes I have seen are not truly white, but rather faded/dilute copies of normally colored Dobes. So, it would not surprise me if this coloration is the result of some sort of genetic dilution.
Of course, I really could not see exactly what color the dog is: pale yellow, orange, cinnamon? Or is it a "biscuit" color such as one sees in Samoyeds? (Samoyeds can be white, all the way to biscuit.) So, IMO, a white GSP could be the result of a genetic mutation, the crossing of two GSPs which carry this small "e," or a long-ago Pointer (or some other breed?) cross, either deliberately or inadvertently, the result of an "oops" breeding. (Perhaps even unknown to the breeder.)
Recessive genes can be carried for generations before appearing. Again, think of breeds like Flat Coats, where yellow apparently can still very occasionally appear. The color is specifically mentioned in that standard as a DQ.
Before anyone jumps on me and says, that a breeder would have known if another dog got into the woodpile, I remind everyone that some of the first GSP books I read, stated that black GSP pups occasionally appeared in litters, and that these were throwbacks. Of course, in reality, a black pigmented pup in a litter where both GSP parents are liver pigmented, means another dog got into the act: Lab, Dobe, Pointer, even a Setter. (An Irish Setter bred to a liver pigmented GSP produces black pups with short coats, although the coats may be softer and slightly longer, once grown.) And these breeds have a similar shape, so a "rogue" pup might look similar in build.
The appearance of "white" GSPs has no bearing on the acceptance of black GSPs in the AKC show ring.
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Eleanor Campbell
New Jersey
Sydney, Presto, Price, Ozma and Soleil |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
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| 02/28/2010 2:52 PM |
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There is a gwoman who lives down the block and she owns a white Dobie. it is not really white and you can not see the pattern of the Dobie anywhere. It is a light cream color. She said the breeder breeds for this color.I will find out how many pups in the litter was this color.
Francine |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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CathyYak
MH
Posts:963
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| 02/28/2010 3:02 PM |
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| You cannot apply Dobe or Pointer color genetics to GSPs. They are different! What can happen in Dobes is not interchangeable with what can happen in GSPs. |
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Cathy Iacopelli
Claddagh Kennels
Long Island, New York |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
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| 02/28/2010 3:52 PM |
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In this thread it has been mentioned that there are about 10 cinnamon colored "GSPs" out there.It sounds as tho at least some are going to breed them.
How likely is this color to be passed? It is a big fear,to me, that in the years to come
there will be a vote on the ballot. It will eventually be passed,as will the black.
I have not heard of this color say, 5 years ago?
Why,suddenly, is the color popping up? 10 dogs is a lot,especially in such a short time frame. Just doesn't make sense.
Francine
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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escampbell
MH
Posts:213
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| 02/28/2010 3:52 PM |
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Nowhere did I say that I was applying any other breed's genetics to GSPs. I was just struck by the fact that these so-called "white" GSPs are not, in fact, white. Just as you can see the Dobe pattern in the "white" Dobe, you can see very faded ticking in the "white" GSP.
And then, if you look at my musings afterwards, I state the many possible ways this coloration could, maybe, have come to be. If you read the Pointer standard, Pointers can be pale colors with pale noses, so could this color be a Pointer color which popped out or is it a cinnamon (mentioned in breed literature) or is it a genetic mutation? Or is there some other long-ago cross to some other breed at work? I do not pretend to know how this coloration came to be.
They are not an acceptable color in Dobes. I have no idea why anyone would breed for it. |
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Eleanor Campbell
New Jersey
Sydney, Presto, Price, Ozma and Soleil |
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RyanGSP
MH
Posts:428
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| 02/28/2010 8:09 PM |
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Posted By CathyYak on 02/28/2010 7:18 AM
Funny how these odd colors never come out of showdogs isn't it? Yet only the show dogs are being penalized in regard to black. Obviously it would not benefit show people to crossbreed. Although I have seen some lines with earily pointer-ish heads and size...
But I just love it when the innocent are punished because of the gulity, who never follow the rules anyway.
And Jason, if you have DNA on those ten or so yellow, white or red dogs and their parents (grandparents would also be done if the people involved wanted to prove they are purebred), pedigrees and photos I would be happy to take a stab at what happened. With the help of a geneticist friend of course.
The show ring has ruined far more GSPs and other breeds of dogs that the field lines has or would have. But thats a whole different arguement saved for a different thread.
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7835
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| 02/28/2010 8:21 PM |
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Posted By RyanGSP on 02/28/2010 8:09 PM
The show ring has ruined far more GSPs and other breeds of dogs that the field lines has or would have. But thats a whole different arguement saved for a different thread.
I think this is an unfair generalization. IMHO there are bad apples on both sides of the fence. I know some very good show breeders and some very good field breeders and have profound respect for both sides. I like a dog that falls somewhere in the middle because I love my dogs to excel in both performance venues and the show ring (and a dog with poor conformation isn't going to be a good field dog whether you follow the form over function or function over form philosphies). The only other comment I will make is if you can't back up a statement like this with solid facts, then don't post it. If you have the facts to back this up, then by all means post them. I think most on this board would be very interested in those facts. After all, I feel like most on this forum are in the breed because they love the breed and want to better it.
  
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
   
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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