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Subject: To breed or not to breed?
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weerubbertummyUser is Offline
Ayrshire, Scotland
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05/10/2012 8:06 AM  

Myself and my partner had this debate about our previous girl Kintra and decided not to breed her mainly because we were both working full time and felt neither of us to commit, especially seeing as we've had no experience.

Now that we have Keely we are reaching a time where she'll possibly come into her first season soon, and then i plan to have her neutered before her second season if we're not breeding from her, so the pressure's on to decide. 

My reason for considering breeding her are: her fantastic nature, intelligence and drive, her working lineage shines through (to inexperienced me anyway), i would like to become more involved in helping the breed for reasons of health - her parents both health tested, and yeah i admit i would like to gain experience in this area.  We are surrounded by doggy people (working and pet) although no gsp people, i am at home all day, we have a suitable house, garden and whelping area.  I would definately contact other accredited gsp breeders and people commited to the breed - am still in contact with Keely's breeder and have contacted the sire's breeder for the sake of staying in touch. We have the finances and i'm well aware that there's probably little to no profit to be made if approach it in a responsible manner.

My worries are: lack of experience (but how else do you gain it?), human traffic in our house isnt really a regular occurence eg kids, the risk factor (Keely's health/life, puppy health/life, my sanity ).

I wanted to give an honest account of how i feel about doing this. My gut instinct is to do it but i would like some feedback.


Miss you forever Kintra baby xxx
pixie beeUser is Offline

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05/10/2012 8:34 AM  
I am a toughie when it comes to breeding.

I feel strongly that hunting breeds should first be proven in field and conformation then considered breeding stock after the owner has evaluated the dog's temperment which would be exposed thru the handling and training.

Producing pups to be sold as 'pets', IMHO, is wrong when it comes to working breeds.
I don't see how this can improve a breed - only producing more of a breed.



"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
weerubbertummyUser is Offline
Ayrshire, Scotland
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05/10/2012 9:12 AM  
Thanks Pixie Bee, i really appreciate your honesty. I also understand that it must be difficult to see GSPs sold as pets esp when you yourself know what they are capable of in the field. It is an awkward situation as most breeders (over here anyway) advertise pups as for working homes, show homes, or active homes, but often with very little follow-up to ensure that is the case.

I have only ever taken on a gsp as a pet so obviously i cant judge anyone for buying them as pets, but my only argument really is that they appear to have been considered just as skilled at being loving companions as they are at fieldwork, and i wonder how much of their nature can be attributed to being bred as suitable companions. What i mean is that maybe they wouldnt be the dogs that they are today if someone hadnt recognized in the past how good they are as a pet also. Sorry, i'm getting completely off-subject here!

I see what you mean about evaluating the individual dog though. I'm perhaps inclined to place a little too much emphasis on lineage alone.

I should have clarified my position on helping the breed - i didnt mean that simply producing more would help, only that as Keelys parents were both health tested (and scored well) i would hopefully be helping to gradually increase the number of GSPs whom have come from health tested generations (surely a good thing?) as there are still many whom are sold with either one or none of the parents health tested.

PB - this is starting to sound like a rant, i promise it's not :0) x
And this was meant to be a quick reply !?!?!?

Miss you forever Kintra baby xxx
Texas BelleUser is Offline
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05/10/2012 10:33 AM  
Breeding is not for the faint of heart. If something can go wrong it likely will. So, in addition to what pixie noted (and I am a firm believer in proving your dog in conformation and performance areas including the field), I would recommend a long hard look at why you want to breed your girl. I would also recommend you consider other things beyond the pedigree in your thoughts about breeding. Just because two lines have great health backgrounds is not necessarily a good reason to breed a bitch. What do you hope to get out of the breeding? How would you place the puppies? What if you can't find puppy buyers for all the pups (shorthairs typically have large litters)? Would you be willing to take a puppy back if one of your puppy buyers could no longer keep the puppy? What if your breeding resulted in some type of genetic problem with the litter (it does happen even in lines that are health tested)? Do you have a repro vet (proven as a good repro vet) near you to help you along? Who would you breed Keely too? and why? The list goes on and on.

The other thing to think about is the amount of work it takes to socialize 10 or so puppies and introduce them to all the things they need to be introduced to during their development. Also, after mom weans they at about 3 weeks are you prepared for the amount of poop that 10 or so demanding puppies create. There is allot to consider in breeding and caring for a litter.

Take some time to think about it. Do not make the decision lightly.

Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)

Yellow Rose GSPs

 photo FaunaBISJan20110001cropped_resized_zps96af44b6.jpg  photo DSC_0044_cropped_zps0a25f9ff.jpg  photo DSC_0030a_zps3c822a4a.jpg  photo DSC_0016cropped_zpsab533745.jpg

"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato
weerubbertummyUser is Offline
Ayrshire, Scotland
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05/10/2012 10:57 AM  

Wow, feeling like i'm being seriously underestimated here - the poop thing was one of my first considerations

No, i seriously appreciate the input.  It's fair to say that all-in-all i'm comfortable with the practicalities, hard work and sleepless nights.  I suppose my question has now been streamlined as to whether i SHOULD.  It's strange despite having Keely and Kintra previously as pets i do feel a level of discomfort about breeding because i dont have experience in what they're specifically and historically bred for, but then i still feel there are people out there who do  make hunting and showing a large part of their and their GSP's life, but maybe dont breed responsibly.  This is so difficult!


Miss you forever Kintra baby xxx
CactusGirl34User is Offline


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05/10/2012 11:45 AM  

I'm coming to this as a person without a dog, but researching breeders. So my take my be slightly different than some others. I will not be hunting my dog, but I will be doing performance sports with him. Also keep in mind I'm in the US, so there may be slightly different standards and conventions elsewhere.

The first question I have is how well versed are you in the breed and how did you gain that knowledge? What have you done with your dog to prove that she is worthy to be bred? How, EXACTLY, does she improve the breed? What parts of her need improvement, and how will you go about choosing a stud dog to complement her? Do you know how to choose a stud dog at all?

Keep in mind that many people, even when buying "just a pet", are looking for a reputable breeder that have proven they know their dogs. Very often, this means a proven working line or show line, as they always will have pet quality dogs available. As a buyer, I would trust these people over someone that does nothing with their dog other than keeps it as a pet and decides to breed her... because they can?

For me, a reputable breeder:

-shows, works, or titles their dog in some way, shape, or form to prove the dog is worthy to be bred
-does the proper health testing on the dogs before they are bred, no matter what their parents' health testing looked like (sorry, but they aren't their parents. they may have their own issues) This may mean waiting until after they are two to breed.
-Not be breeding just to produce more pets or potentially healthy dogs, but have a purpose to their breeding program that improves the breed
-Can provide a pedigree, and explain what it means and the good and bad of the pedigree/lines

There are many, many more that involve actually purchasing the dogs, but these are the main ones for why they're breeding. I would not buy a dog that the breeder was not willing to take back if need be, was not available for the lifetime of the dog to answer questions, and I would not buy a dog from a breeder that did not do an inquiry into me as a puppy buyer. Are you prepared to do all these things?

pixie beeUser is Offline

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05/10/2012 12:37 PM  
And on the lighter side:

you would probably sell the entire litter,esp if you chose a titled sire.





"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
weerubbertummyUser is Offline
Ayrshire, Scotland
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05/10/2012 12:44 PM  
CactusGirl34 - sorry to say but your advice doesnt "EXACTLY" sound impartial, you only appeared on here asking about this breed just over a month ago. And sorry, but doing "performance sports" doesnt necessarily mean that the dog wouldnt be a "pet".
I'm getting the impression the "pet"owners are maybe slightly frowned upon? I also think that you're making assumptions about me - "Keep in mind that many people, even when buying "just a pet", are looking for a reputable breeder that have proven they know their dogs. Very often, this means a proven working line or show line, as they always will have pet quality dogs available. As a buyer, I would trust these people over someone that does nothing with their dog other than keeps it as a pet and decides to breed her... because they can?" I asked the question in advance to decide whether to neuter my girl, or wait to breed from her for the right reasons - it sounds like you are making judgements about me in your post.


Miss you forever Kintra baby xxx
weerubbertummyUser is Offline
Ayrshire, Scotland
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05/10/2012 12:49 PM  
Thanks pixie bee! I just want to do the right thing by the breed and i hope you and Texas Belle both realise that xxx Nothing wrong with dreaming about these things!

Miss you forever Kintra baby xxx
CactusGirl34User is Offline


Posts:14


05/10/2012 1:06 PM  
Posted By weerubbertummy on 05/10/2012 12:44 PM
CactusGirl34 - sorry to say but your advice doesnt "EXACTLY" sound impartial, you only appeared on here asking about this breed just over a month ago. And sorry, but doing "performance sports" doesnt necessarily mean that the dog wouldnt be a "pet".
I'm getting the impression the "pet"owners are maybe slightly frowned upon? I also think that you're making assumptions about me - "Keep in mind that many people, even when buying "just a pet", are looking for a reputable breeder that have proven they know their dogs. Very often, this means a proven working line or show line, as they always will have pet quality dogs available. As a buyer, I would trust these people over someone that does nothing with their dog other than keeps it as a pet and decides to breed her... because they can?" I asked the question in advance to decide whether to neuter my girl, or wait to breed from her for the right reasons - it sounds like you are making judgements about me in your post.

 

Actually, it wasn't really advice, more of what someone in my position may be looking for and many things to think about when making your decision. Though I may be new to the gsp breed, I have been around dogs most of my life, including breeders of Dobes (in fact, my family did breed Dobes years ago and did obedience and conformation with them).

When I said I would be doing performance sports, I just meant that it wouldn't be a hunting dog. I really meant that more as it would be more of a pet. I don't frown on pet owners, as I would be one. No matter what I do with my dog, it will always be a member of my family first and foremost.

Not making judgments, though you yourself I believe said she was just a pet and not being shown or worked? If I got that wrong, I apologize. This is just true for what I, as a puppy buyer, would be looking for in a breeder - across the board for any breed.

Whether you spay her or not, is up to you. But "the right reasons" for breeding, for me as a buyer, would be to improve the breed, and this includes proving in some way that the dog (stud or bitch) should be bred.

Texas BelleUser is Offline
Austin, TX
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05/10/2012 1:15 PM  
It always starts with a dream and progresses from there. My intention was not to discourage you, but just to make sure you were thinking about the ramifications.

When I bred Halo, it was for performance dogs with good conformation. So many GSP breeders are breeding for conformation only, and there are many, like me, that also do other performance work. Any hunting, agility or obedience person will tell you that good conformation in a performance dog whether for hunting, agility, obedience, tracking, etc is one of the most important things they look for, and unfortunately many show folks will only sell their top prospects to show homes leaving the pet quality for performance people. Ask any agility person how long a dog with even minor conformation issues lasts in their agility career. They will tell you not very long. Same with a dog that is expected to hunt the better part of the day whether in competition or just a hunting home. What about the pet home that wants to play frisbee with their dog? A pet quality dog with a poor straight front or an over-angulated rear will not last long under heavy working conditions. What about an obedience or hunting dog that has to retrieve something and they have a short neck or a ewe neck? Both of those things will end their career immediately, especially if you ask a dog with a ewe neck to retrieve something in the water and they can't swim. It is extremely important just as human athletes need as close to perfect a form as they can get for their sport, so dogs need near perfect conformation for the sports that they do. And so, I decided I wanted to breed good conformation dogs for performance folks. My top 5 dogs in the litter all went to performance homes and thankfully they also plan on putting conformation titles on them as well.

Just take your time in thinking about why you want to breed Keely even if that means letting her go through a couple of seasons before you make your final decision. Good luck and ask questions.

Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)

Yellow Rose GSPs

 photo FaunaBISJan20110001cropped_resized_zps96af44b6.jpg  photo DSC_0044_cropped_zps0a25f9ff.jpg  photo DSC_0030a_zps3c822a4a.jpg  photo DSC_0016cropped_zpsab533745.jpg

"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato
weerubbertummyUser is Offline
Ayrshire, Scotland
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05/10/2012 1:43 PM  
Thanks TB for your advice - i'll maybe do some extra research if you or PB can recommend any websites or books on the matter.

CactusGirl34 - i apologise if i was a little rough, but "someone that does nothing with their dog other than keeps it as a pet and decides to breed her... because they can?" in the context sounded like it was an inaccurate assumption aimed at me. You dont know me, and although it's not much i have 3 more years experience with GSPs than you, not to mention that i've also grown up around dogs, specifically working dogs. So i dont take this decision lightly and having nothing but the dog's welfare in mind, not to mention the welfare of the breed.

Miss you forever Kintra baby xxx
Texas BelleUser is Offline
Austin, TX
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05/10/2012 2:10 PM  
Here are some good books to get you started:

Der Deutsch-Kurzhaar by Georgina Byrne (specifically about GSPs, hard to get and a bit pricey, but one of the best books on the GSP)
Inheritance in Dogs with special reference to hunting breeds by Ojvind Winge (an older book, but still has some good stuff in it)
Control of Canine Genetic Diseases by George A. Padgett
Structure and Terminology by Edward M. Gilbert, Jr. and Thelma R. Brown (good book on general dog structure)
Breeding Dogs to Win by Dr. Carmelo L. Battaglia
Structure in Action, The Making of a Durable Dog by Pat Hastings
Dog in Action, A Study of Structure and Locomotion As Applying to All Breeds by McDowell Lyon
An Eye for a Dog by Robert W. Cole (this is an illustrated guide to judging dogs)
Puppy Development by Pat Hastings and Erin Ann Rouse
Canine Reproduction and Whelping, A Dog Breeder's Guide by Myra Savant-Harris RN
Puppy Intensive Care, A Breeder's Guide to Care of Newborn Puppies by Myra Savant-Harris RN
Canine Terminology by Harold R. Spira (this is an illustrated dictionary)

Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)

Yellow Rose GSPs

 photo FaunaBISJan20110001cropped_resized_zps96af44b6.jpg  photo DSC_0044_cropped_zps0a25f9ff.jpg  photo DSC_0030a_zps3c822a4a.jpg  photo DSC_0016cropped_zpsab533745.jpg

"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato
weerubbertummyUser is Offline
Ayrshire, Scotland
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05/10/2012 2:20 PM  

Thank you so very much for that list and the descriptions - exactly what i was looking for to help me make an informed decision.  As i said before (and you know my history on here) i only want to contribute to the health of the breed for genuine and personal reasons but i know i have a lot to learn.


Miss you forever Kintra baby xxx
pixie beeUser is Offline

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05/10/2012 3:40 PM  
Thoughts that cross my mind when I considered being a breeder:

-what health tests are necessary?
-what conformation issues are there?
-what is the dog's temperment,stress level,maturity(slower/faster),any timidness,cooperation level(too cooperative/not enough),tendency toward aggression/fearful/insecurities
-tractability

then I have natural ability questions I ask myself

I, personally, don't think a dog is worth breeding simply b/c it's healthy. Unless the owner believes the breed needs healthy dogs to be bred in order to maintain a healthy gene pool - as in the Weimeraner.

There are activities you can do with her that will show you a lot about her.
You can achieve a certificte similiar to a Canine Good Citizen,a therapy dog,obedience titel,agility title.

It would be good if you could show dedication to the breed and put your money where your mouth is (not to be rude - just to the point)










"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
kpwleeUser is Offline
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05/10/2012 6:07 PM  
As you all know I own a shelter mutt. Couldn't love him more but my next dog will be a well -bred gsp. I intend on hunt training, may be agility, or SAR. To be honest I'd be looking along similar lines as Cactusgirl. I have been learning about how to select a well-bred dog for a few years now and will tell you that when the time comes I will be buying a pup from someone who uses healthy and titled dogs to breed and offers health guarantees and is in it for the long run.
To me when you buy a breed you want specific traits and one breeds to enhance those traits. I can't tell you what ideal conformation is but I know people who can. The point that they need the conformation to be right in order to be able to work is serious.
Poor Bugsy has terrible knees that have been an issue for him since he was 3.5, he is still a wild man but I hope to never have a dog with such energy & drive whose body isnt up to the challenge.
So .... If you decide you want to breed her, start competing with her, get titles in some things, get her health tested, find out her strengths and weaknesses, research sires that will improve those weaknesses and strengthen her strengths. Breed with a specific purpose.
I know the dog situation in the UK isn't as bad as it is here but don't just make more good looking gsp's, look to improve on her or enjoy her and leave breeding to those that are going to do all the competitions, etc. and who are committed to the breed meaning in what it is meant to do

It's Bugsy's world...
http://dailyzoomie.blogspot.com/
weerubbertummyUser is Offline
Ayrshire, Scotland
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05/11/2012 12:43 AM  
Thanks guys, it's all food for thought. You've all confirmed what i said earlier about feeling discomfort about breeding because i'm not involved in these activities. I've only really been playing around with scenting activities because i'm having problems finding an hpr group near enough to join regularly so i'm thinking it may be the case that i would only ever be dipping my toe in the hunting side of things with her.

I will carry on looking into the subject in depth and have a serious think about what activities i'll be doing with her. Can i ask at what age have you bred from your girl?

Miss you forever Kintra baby xxx
Texas BelleUser is Offline
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05/11/2012 8:24 AM  
I bred Halo at 5 yo which is a little bit on the older side for a first time breeding. I plan to breed Fauna at about 3 yo. I would never breed before 2 yo because they have to be 2 yo before you can do OFA on hips and elbows. I have already started her other health clearances. We have completed the cardiac, cone degeneration, lupoid dermatosis. Still need to do OFA hips and elbows and CERF (eyes).

Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)

Yellow Rose GSPs

 photo FaunaBISJan20110001cropped_resized_zps96af44b6.jpg  photo DSC_0044_cropped_zps0a25f9ff.jpg  photo DSC_0030a_zps3c822a4a.jpg  photo DSC_0016cropped_zpsab533745.jpg

"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato
smatulewiczUser is Offline
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05/11/2012 8:26 AM  
Hubbs asked me the other day if I wanted to breed Bells before we spay. To him.. because she is loyal, beautiful, great natured, and has some obvious strong natural instincts. My take on it was... absolutely not. 1. I'm not a breeder and do not intend to be. 2. I don't feel it necessary to put Bella through it if there is no real great reason to 3. (and the biggest probably lol) I could NEVER and I mean NEVER raise puppies and then be strong enough to give them away lol.

On the other side of things... my husband and I chose a GSP as he wanted a woods/hunting partner and I wanted a dog who could shut off hunting and be a loyal family dog (content camping, enjoying the lake, hikes, or just be a dog in general and know what it means to just play). I have encountered too many hunting dogs that are hunting soldiers and never seemed to know how to turn off and just be a dog. So when looking for a breeder...I wanted someone who had hunting/family dogs, and that didn't breed big time for money...but just appropriately and safely bred their beloved family dogs (following all the guidelines, testing, socialization they should and who had the capability to hunt if wanted.) My view may be vastly different from others...but it is what we wanted. Needless to say I didn't even go with the breeder I had researched and decided upon, because Bella's picture came along and stole my heart.

I'm never one to discourage anyone from anything, but simply suggest a lot of research and time pondering if it is right for you, your family, and your dog (which you seem to be doing).
pixie beeUser is Offline

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05/11/2012 9:00 AM  
An important aspect of dog ownership that is often not acknowledged is that a pet often steals our hearts b/c of how great they are at being a companion and how attractive they are to the eye. On the flip side - the let's get this dog some performance titles side - shows us how different a pet is from a performance dog.

Did that make sense?

Begin preparing for performance titles and you will see and learn so much about yourself and your dog. Not just the beginer titles - the more advanced ones really tell us a lot.

riding on the coat tails of others is not responsibe,IMO. If a dog is good enough to be bred - then it's good enough to prove it.
IMO anyway.
There are more that ride on the coat tails of others than those who don't.
And the puppies will get sold.

Not to say in anyway that a title is all that needs to be looked at.

Responsible breeders don't breed paper.










"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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