As I understand the German emphasis on "form follows function," GSP breeding historically concentrated around dogs that could perform at the highest levels in the field.  I have noticed that many of the current American dogs that are being bred for show are often not hunted over, or at the very least, sires and dams are not chosen for their abilities, but rather based on conformation (making generalizations here).  It seems we have inverted the German emphasis to "function follows form," which I guess is a constant temptation that the Germans wrestled with...

I have seen a number of show GSPs that have finer heads/jaws than I would like on a hunting dog.  Are we on the verge of making a serious error in American GSPs and breeding into two separate types, similar to what other sporting breeds have seen?  I sure hope not, and hold in high respect the top breeders out there who are committed to DC dogs.

I really care about the future of the breed and hope we can guard against those who might under-emphasize function.

I really can't agree with you Ken. Were you to look at the HOF for the GSPCA, you would find the CH and FC to be about equally split with , maybe a bit heavier towards the Field side. There are also quite a few DC thrown in there for good measure. These dogs have contributed in a major way to the Breeding pool. More and more, we are seeing "Show folks" taking to the field in Hunt Test and while many only achieve a JH, there are also a goodly number that are Testing beyond that to Senior and Master levels. Consider also, that these are participating mostly in AKC Events and then consider the number of GSP's that are Testing in NAVHDA and/or Trialing in NGSPA, NSTRA, UFTA and the myriad of other Field type events.

All of this before we even consider looking at the NADKC.

No, I think the Function of the GSP will remain strong and those whom fail to prove their lines in the Field, will ultimately separate themselves from the Breed as a whole.

I personally prefer Function AND Form. My .02!

Glad to hear your perspective and I certainly hope that is true.  I just find it interesting that the breed was developed to trail wounded stags, bears, etc, in Germany, yet I met a show "champion" dog by a reputable breeder that peed in fear at the sight of my two year old son.  This breeder has done quite well in the conformation world, so it really made me wonder about the direction of the breed.

Thanks for the responses, appreciate it.

Ken

Thanks Wagonmaster.  Yes, I have read Maxwell's book and am familiar with the struggle between the two camps in Germany.  My question for you is, do we have such a struggle in the states?  We may not have such a struggle, I am fairly new to the breed (~4 years) and am still learning.

Nothing prevents us, we simply have no interest.

We hear, "You could show that dog in the ring but you would have to put some weight on it."  Or, "they are placing the little one's now," and we know it is not for us or our dogs.

As for "the standard," what a dog does and how well it does it is the standard, not how it looks.  That "doing" standard is not applied anywhere in the show ring. 

I like pretty things as much as the next person, but I go for dogs that work well in the field first.  What is pretty to my eye, therefore, well muscled and conditioned, definition, no fat, a neck that will carry a head in the field, an eye-catching running gait, a high tail and style on point, may not be pretty to a show person's eye. 

Yet the Germans found a way to incorporate both into their defintion of a Sieger (champion).  Its a shame we don't follow their example...

kr lets not get started on the German dog thing.  If you want a dog that will catch and kill a fox or cat, track a deer and hunt rabbits you are in the right ballpark.  Most people here in the US, not all but most, want their GSP's as bird dogs.  That is what I do with mine, and have done all over the US and even up in Alberta.  The Germans have virtually no bird hunting left, so have gone in a different direction with their dogs.  More power to them.  Not for me or for most US hunters, and much better in concept and advertisement than in actual practice.

Wagonmaster, sorry I don't think I was clear.  I am not talking about hunting furred animals, but rather that the German champion title (KS) includes both conformation and hunting.  It seems to me that you might have two equally good hunting dogs, one ugly as sin and the other quite pleasant to the eye.  In that situation I think we would all prefer the one with both function AND form.

I understood you.  My point is that theory is nice, the Germans have alot of nice theory for example, but there is no such thing as a dog without flaws.  Some people will tell you their dog has none, and some people will tell you that DK's have none, but if you believe that, you deserve what you get.  Understand that none are perfect, and then try to find out in what way the particular dog(s) you want to buy are not perfect, and if that will work for you.

As far as conformation standards go, there are no conformation standards at all, no shows at all, in the American Field system, and yet the AF breeds are widely recognized as some of the best there are as hunting dogs.  The Grouse Dog/Cover Dog trials are all AF trials, no show standard.  All the wild bird trials/tests/whatever you want to call them, that are held in the entire country, are AF.  No show standard.  Right now, today, the largest of all the US National Championships is running at the Ames Plantation.  Look it up at www.amesplantation.org  .  The winner is invariably a pointer, but there is no conformation standard for pointers in the AF.  None at all.  Only the standards for performance. 

Ken, in field trial judging and among field trialers, no one judges a dog based on other types of competition the dog might run in.  We don't look at a show dog and say to ourselves, that is a show dog, we should not place it for that reason.  We do not say "that dog runs in NAVHDA, don't place it."  We look at a dog, see how it performs, and place it based on performance relative to the other dogs in a given stake.  Pure and simple. 

I would have to say that in some AKC weekend trials, some of the time, some of the placements can be a little political, but that is because too often the judge(s) have no experience and can't resist those pressures.  The more experienced judges do not place dogs based on who the dog is or who the handler is, they place dogs based on what they see the dog do.  That is our ethic. 

So I disagree with you that people who run DC's in trials are considered "half breeds" because they are running dogs that are shown.  Actually, most judges I know would be tickled pink to place a nice DC dog if that dog performed. 

But since we place on what we see in the performance of each dog on a given day, and only that, we do not favor dogs because they are shown either.

At the risk of alienating show people, some of whom are friends, I have to tell you that when they are not placed, it is because we see poor gaits, poor application, and poor performance.  Not because of any bias towards or away from show type dogs.  They are simply not as good as dogs that come from stock that is not the product of the show circuit. 

Unfortunately, too many of the type of dog you speak of, are contaminated by the "style" that prevails in the show ring, and that does not make a good hunting or field trial dog.

We have not had a DC win the GSPCA NFC in over 20 years.  What does that tell you?