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trueblushorthairs
 MH Posts:129


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| 01/19/2011 7:31 AM |
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Ryan, I think you said it!! Pixie, I'm terribly sorry that I made some points you didn't like but all I have posted is far from slander and as I have said, it was not about your dogs, I even said that I don't know your dogs and cannot give an opinion, muchless anything as a point of fact. I do see you didn't answer my questions of...have you ever even ridden a trial west of the Mason Dixon or have you ever even been to Ames? I find it awfully difficult to post an opinion on a subject I know nothing or have never experienced. Others find it quite easy. |
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pixie bee
 MH Posts:4476


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| 01/19/2011 8:10 AM |
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Trueblu, I did answer your question. Whether I have been there or not does not change the terrain or the facts of the championship in any way. I asked questions and posted facts about the championship trial. You claim b/c the birds are released,not wild and that the 6,000 acres is not good hunting grounds (may be your opinion)what takes place during the trial is not indicative of real hunting, so, what happens at Ames or Dixie Plantation - which uses wild birds - has no bearing on unproductives. You were not the one accusing me of bashing or slander. I find it awfully difficult to post an opinion on a subject I know nothing or have never experienced. Others find it quite easy. From reading your posts it doesn't appear to be all that difficult for you. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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briarpatch N.J.
 MH Posts:168


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| 01/19/2011 8:27 AM |
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Like I said its been an interesting and informative chat , I think its important to point out to newer people to the breed there are different types and styles of GSP/DKs , so they know to check their breeder well to see if they are breeding the type or a style that will fit their hunting and or testing conditions and area of the world well , there are far to many shorthairs that end up in rescues or kill shelters due to new owners not being happy with their dog purchase due to the fact they think all shorthairs are alike which they obviously arent .. Obviously many on here have found a type and or style that suites their needs well for their particular area and hunting conditions and or testing conditions and are passionate they have some of the best GSP/DKs out there and they probably are some of the best for where they live and how they hunt and or test.. Getting in a discusion like this does help to let new people thinking of coming to the breed hear of some of the different styles and types and hopefully will encourage them to check their breeder well to pick a GSP/DK they will be happy with in the future and hunt in the style or type they need for thier particular area or testing grounds.. But we really need to get back on topic .. To get back on topic.... What it boils down to is some of these odd colors could have been created through an influx of newer genes some could have been created through recessive genes we will really never know the answer unless science makes a astounding leap forward in the future .. We can guess We can speculate but we really will not know the true answer .. |
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My Pups:
   
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pixie bee
 MH Posts:4476


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| 01/19/2011 8:30 AM |
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Why is it that no one offered a definition of "run" other than someone who clearly posted they know very little about it? I continually find field trial folks find themselves in need of defending their dogs and in doing so attempt to discredit others and there dogs. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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trueblushorthairs
 MH Posts:129


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| 01/19/2011 9:23 AM |
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Pixie, I by no means named you in anything I posted. The word "others" may or may not be speaking of you. You posted information about Ames as if you knew something about the venue. I have been to Ames, not during the National Championship but have been to the grounds. You want a definition of run...verb (used without object) 1. to go quickly by moving the legs more rapidly than at a walk and in such a manner that for an instant in each step all or both feet are off the ground. 2. to move with haste; act quickly: Run upstairs and get the iodine. 3. to depart quickly; take to flight; flee or escape: to run from danger. However, if you are asking for the definition of run in a field trial venue, then I would say that run is a dog's ability to range at speed in search of game. Simple right? Run is directly affected by the objectives and cover available. If a dog hunts likely objectives at a speed proportionate to the cover in a proper and intelligent search for game, then I would say that dog has run. The error as I see it is when those who are not experienced in wild bird hunting or horseback field trialing only define run as range. A dog having run can range 200 yards or 1 mile, depends on his methodology and speed(to an extent). A dog that lays his ears back and doesn't hunt a step may be said to have run, but that dog is running and/or running off. A dog with "run" must still hunt IMHO. However, if he potters, relies on whistle commands, hand signals, has a slow pattern of movement, hunts every bush, etc. etc. he doesn't have run. I don't defend my dogs as they have proven all they need to prove in trials and in wild bird hunting. |
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pixie bee
 MH Posts:4476


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| 01/19/2011 9:38 AM |
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The definition I got is a bit different. It goes something like this: being bred for horseback - distance being the important factor, being wide open all the time, covering tremendous amounts of ground in a short time span, not being able to keep up on foot. Honestly, I can see this as being a huge rush. Having a dog or dogs with such power can be exillerating. I can picture myself riding and following these dogs and getting revved up in the environment. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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trueblushorthairs
 MH Posts:129


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| 01/19/2011 12:49 PM |
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OK, so where did you get that definition and is it for the "run" of an all age dog??? Was the definition from an experienced successful trialer and breeder of championship caliber championship winning field trial all age or shooting dogs? OR, was the definition written by a person who has never attended a trial, or only a weekend trial or has never ridden a brace, or from Ferrell Miller, Luke Eisenhart, Delmar Smith, or George Tracy? Need to consider the source before any credence can be given. If one defines the AKC gun dog then your definition is a contradiction to reality. I guess my overall problem with the simple definition of pure "run" is that it often doesn't consider hunting in the equation. If that is the only criteria, which it is NOT, then we may as well be running Greyhounds, which, we are NOT. As a judge, with experience in weekend trials, AKC hunting tests, American Field weekend all age stakes, and AF championships, I will stick to my definition. |
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briarpatch N.J.
 MH Posts:168


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pixie bee
 MH Posts:4476


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| 01/19/2011 1:23 PM |
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The definition comes from the someone involved with team huntsmith. I can't figure you guys out. There is a definition for "run" depending on what venue the dog participats in? |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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trueblushorthairs
 MH Posts:129


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| 01/19/2011 1:50 PM |
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Yes, there is a different definition for all venues imho. If we consider only trials, and primarily the kid of dogs that the Smith boys and Delmar once ran, I'd say their definition is about right for those dogs. In fact, I owned some brits way way back when many were working to try to put runs on that breed and I'd say that without saying too much, that definition covered those dogs at that time. But, now we have so many venues, hunting tests, walking gun dog stakes, NBHA, ABHA, AKC weekend, AF hour championships, horseback gun dog stakes, horseback shooting dog stakes, weekend AKC all age stakes, AF all age hour championships, prairie all age stakes. I assure you, run in each of those can be defined differently plus factor in opinion and you have even more differing definitions. If you want ONE definition for one venue, you still will never get it. You seem to want an absolute and as they say, the only two are death and taxes. |
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pixie bee
 MH Posts:4476


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| 01/19/2011 2:27 PM |
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Let me try to better understand. Each pointing breed and each venue have their own definition of "run" and to further complicate things - if a dog participates in several venues that dog's "run" will be defined according to the breed and how it adapts to that venue. So.... what are we talking about? A dog that covers a fair amount ground with style, ease and at a gallop or at least according to the terrain, searches likely cover, works to the front,works in and out of sight,looks good on point and requires little handling. While I am not sure why "run" has become an issue - it seems to have importance in proving my dogs don't have "run" and therefore not capable of hunting for hours at a time. "run" came up when the discussion turned to a dog's capability to hunt for many hours. A dog w/o run can hunt for many hours,so can a dog with run. The ability to hunt for hours is determined by conformation and conditioning, as we can see from the many definitions of run, it has absolutely nothing to do with either. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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trueblushorthairs
 MH Posts:129


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| 01/19/2011 3:17 PM |
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I'm sorry I guess I'm denser than even normal, you are saying that run has nothing to do with conformation or conditioning? Or that conformation and conditioning have nothing to do with run? If you take a big fat oversized out of condition dog and turn him loose, he's not going to run or have run. No matter what his body type or pedigree says. If you take an oversized show dog and road him until the world ends, most of the time he is not gonna have the speed, range, or desire to go as hard as the average field trial bred dog. Run is an issue because in areas that require dogs to run at a speed of 10-14 mph for hours on end to cover the ground that must be covered VERSUS the person who hunts 25 acre plots and hunts in a windshield wiper pattern at a slower speed, 3-4 mph, then run is an issue for both. A dog that runs full bore and doesn't hunt the cover completely is often useless in Kansas CRP, but a dog that hunts like a chess game is useless in west Texas or at a field trial in the western states. PLEASE tell me one thing, why do you ask, "it seems to have importance in proving my dogs..."??? Now, PLEASE tell me why you keep going back to the "my dogs" argument??? YOU are the ONLY one who is bringing up YOUR dogs. I thought we were defining terms and discussing runs and venues. YOU are the ONLY one who is talking about your dogs. |
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briarpatch N.J.
 MH Posts:168


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| 01/19/2011 4:10 PM |
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Yeah I also dont remember discusing your dogs , I just was attempting to help ya better understand the definition of run and you kept asking again as you didnt understand or you was waiting for someone to give you a better definition .. I stand by my definition A dog that has "run" looks to the eye he/she is on a full bore run running with all his/her might the entire hunt.. A dog that does NOT have " run" appears to be jogging or fast pacing for the majority of the hunt with occasional full bore runs during the hunt. I believe nobody jumped to correct that definition because that is the definition. doesnt really matter so much the venue , i think someone gave you a simpler to understand definition that applies to one venue ..of course i could be wrong.. |
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My Pups:
   
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pixie bee
 MH Posts:4476


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| 01/19/2011 5:01 PM |
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A dog can have run, it may be hidden by not being conditioned or overweight, but if it's there, it's there. How do you know a show dog can't ever have run? Hunting 10-14 miles per hour for hours on end???? Are you kidding me? I keep going back to my dogs b/c it was said that DKs are not bred for run and Ryan continues to claim my dogs are not capable of hunting all day. In case you guys have forgotten the last 8 pages or so, it is about Ryan saying MY DOGS are not good.You 2 fail to realize this entire nonsense was started by Ryan and how much better his dogs are then mine.Go and read, you'll see all the bashing and slander about "my dogs". Ok let's back up a bit. A dog that has "run" looks to the eye he/she is on a full bore run running with all his/her might the entire hunt.. Now, how can this happen w/o the definition I was given and posted: The definition I got is a bit different. It goes something like this: being bred for horseback - distance being the important factor, being wide open all the time, covering tremendous amounts of ground in a short time span, not being able to keep up on foot. Please explain. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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briarpatch N.J.
 MH Posts:168


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briarpatch N.J.
 MH Posts:168


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| 01/19/2011 5:31 PM |
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| I added a bunch of probablys,,, so not to get jumped on for guessing what most of a specific group breeds for... |
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My Pups:
   
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briarpatch N.J.
 MH Posts:168


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| 01/19/2011 5:39 PM |
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Oh and I would like to thank the moderators for allowing us to continue and being so far off topic without locking the thread or bouncing anyone for getting a bit passionate at times , its been a good and informative discussion overall even with the bit of humor and passion thrown in once in awhile from many ... Thanks |
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Texas Belle Austin, TX
 MH Posts:7929


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| 01/19/2011 6:27 PM |
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Ok, now it is my turn to disagree with a post. Briar you said
""run" is not a requirement of a show"
I beg to differ. Good movement and conformation are a requirement of a show dog. The difference is we can only display that movement at a trot in most show venues because of the ring limitations. A good show dog though should have that excellent movement at any speed and should be able to keep it up for hours. Just because some judges are not very good, rings do not accomodate the gallop (my term for run based on dog physiology) and some show dogs do not have it does not mean it is not required.
Here is an excerpt from the standard. And yes I understand some is subject to interpretation, but I would maintain that a dog who has poor movement at whatever speed has conformation issues, and would not do any better at a gallop or run. And likewise a dog that fits the description below and has excellent movement and conformation at a trot will be able to move just as well at higher speeds and keep them up for extended periods. And yes we then get to the debate of whether said dog could hunt, but that is not my point here. I am only talking about movement and gallop or run.
"General Appearance
The German Shorthaired Pointer is a versatile hunter, an all-purpose gun dog capable of high performance in field and water. The judgement of Shorthairs in the show ring reflects this basic characteristic. The overall picture which is created in the observer's eye is that of an aristocratic, well balanced, symmetrical animal with conformation indicating power, endurance and agility and a look of intelligence and animation. The dog is neither unduly small nor conspicuously large. It gives the impression of medium size, but is like the proper hunter, "with a short back, but standing over plenty of ground." Symmetry and field quality are most essential. A dog in hard and lean field condition is not to be penalized; however, overly fat or poorly muscled dogs are to be penalized. A dog well balanced in all points is preferable to one with outstanding good qualities and defects. Grace of outline, clean-cut head, sloping shoulders, deep chest, powerful back, strong quarters, good bone composition, adequate muscle, well carried tail and taut coat produce a look of nobility and indicate a heritage of purposefully conducted breeding. Further evidence of this heritage is movement which is balanced, alertly coordinated and without wasted motion.
Gait
A smooth lithe gait is essential. It is to be noted that as gait increases from the walk to a faster speed, the legs converge beneath the body. The tendency to single track is desirable. The forelegs reach well ahead as if to pull in the ground without giving the appearance of a hackney gait. The hindquarters drive the back legs smoothly and with great power."
At the end of the day, I think the path to betterment of the breeds lies in breeding for an all around good dog and not focusing on one particular aspect of the dog. If all we worry about is gait, surely other aspects of the package will deteriorate from the original intent of the breed. Likewise if we only breed for a pretty dog other areas suffer. It is in all our best interest to look at the whole dog and breed accordingly. I know most of you do not think very highly of the JH, but I would be a strong proponent of requiring a JH on a dog before it can be shown in the breed ring. That at least insures the basic hunting instinct remains in the dogs that are bred. I would also love to see some type of conformation evaluation/test on some of the field dogs prior to seeing them bred as well. And while we are at it a temperament test too. I have seen far to many dogs in various venues that are being bred that I frankly wouldn't own because they aren't the whole package, and I don't care how many titles the dog may have before and after his name. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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pixie bee
 MH Posts:4476


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| 01/19/2011 6:51 PM |
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I'm not any closer to a proper defintion of run then I was a few pages ago. However, if you are asking for the definition of run in a field trial venue, then I would say that run is a dog's ability to range at speed in search of game. Simple right? Run is directly affected by the objectives and cover available. If a dog hunts likely objectives at a speed proportionate to the cover in a proper and intelligent search for game, then I would say that dog has run. The error as I see it is when those who are not experienced in wild bird hunting or horseback field trialing only define run as range. A dog having run can range 200 yards or 1 mile, depends on his methodology and speed(to an extent). A dog that lays his ears back and doesn't hunt a step may be said to have run, but that dog is running and/or running off. A dog with "run" must still hunt IMHO. However, if he potters, relies on whistle commands, hand signals, has a slow pattern of movement, hunts every bush, etc. etc. he doesn't have run Briarpatch, this is not your definition.And it wasn't the definition I was given,which,BTW, is almost identical to yours. The above quote should be the goal of every GSP/DK breeder. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Texas Belle Austin, TX
 MH Posts:7929


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| 01/19/2011 7:24 PM |
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| Ok, per Bruce's request I am posting in the run thread. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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