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briarpatch N.J.
 MH Posts:168


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snips n.ga.
 MH Posts:413


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| 06/28/2009 11:59 AM |
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I do not, as I do not feel they are worth the paper they are written on. I just try to screen buyers and talk to them about how to do things. Last litters I have gotten as involved as possible in getting people testing at least for JH which gets them involved in their dog afield. I do not sell pups to pet homes, period. We work hard at breeding dogs that have the qualities for hunting, trialing or testing and like very much to see them doing as much as possible. |
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brenda |
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Central.Wa.GSPs
 MH Posts:314


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| 07/01/2009 4:39 PM |
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| I do only because I have found out that 99% of the time I can weed out the not so good homes with it. If a person was not going to sign and agree my contract then I knew that I didn't want one of my pups in their home. It is a personal opinion. My contract is simple and to the point of care, exercise, food, and keeping me updated once in a while on how the dog is doing. Its the way I do it. And seriously I weeded out a lot of nutty people who wanted to hunt the dog who had some WIERD agendas. |
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-Jessica- *Bailey* GSP *Lily* GSP * RIP: Maggie Mae* GSP
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bruns333 Central Ohio
 MH Posts:383


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| 07/02/2009 7:51 AM |
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| I kinda feel like Central, that it helps weed out folks who don't take the time to fill it out na d return it. Mine is pretty simple and you can look at it on my website. |
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Where temperament means performance http://silverbulletshorthairs.com/ http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=721 R.I.P Trego 6-1-03 to 10-13-10 http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=941 http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=3626 |
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briarpatch N.J.
 MH Posts:168


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| 07/12/2009 11:39 AM |
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Bruns, very nice simple contract, I have seen some crazy ones, I especially like the fact you encourage your buyers to participate in hunt tests by offering a small refund if they do, yet it is not a requirement. Very well thought out and nicely put together. Dennis |
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My Pups:
   
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TessaGA Georgia
 MH Posts:2387


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| 08/05/2009 3:11 PM |
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From a buyer's perspective, I liked my breeder's contract, it just signaled to me that she cared what happens to the pups and there were also a few things in there that I liked to see like health guarantees. [Not saying that Brenda doesn't care, or that a breeder with that piece of paper does, but it's just one more thing that may separate a backyard breeder from a better breeder]. I have friends that breed working American Bulldogs and offer a partial refund of the price paid, on any of their dogs that gets titled (they do Schutzhund). I think that's a clever idea. |
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To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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pixie bee
 MH Posts:4448


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| 08/07/2009 8:32 AM |
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I prefer not to have a contract. I don't want anyone telling me they will co-own a dog with me,if they decide my dog is not being treated nice enough they want it back, I HAVE to show, I HAVE to test,I HAVE to spay/neuter,limited registrations BS,ect. I don't HAVE to do anything, I spend a lot of money purchasing my dogs and I don't want anyone telling me what THEY want. When I breed,if I do, I will not have a contract. Someone's word and handshake are all I will require. I will imploy the usual good old gut feeling before agreeing to any sale but I think most people stick to their word.Having a valid hunting license and/or a club membership is a plus. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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MelB
 MH Posts:1217


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| 08/10/2009 4:11 PM |
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I've only had one dog that came with a contract and it was an irish setter who was supposed to be show quality (notice the word supposed). At 8 months it became apparent he was not show quality and in fact it was leaked to me that he was not even the pup that I had picked when I saw them at 4 weeks! The breeder and I co-owned the pup and when I announced that the dog was NOT show quality as many, many, many judges pointed out to me and I asked to be allowed to neuter the dog and show him in obedience instead I was told in no uncertian terms NO. Now I had a dog I had spent a good bit of money on, that was misrepresented to me, wasn't the dog I picked for myself, and I could not neuter him to keep him as a pet. Long story short, in the contract it stated that she had right of first refusal AT ORIGINAL COST (she never realized her contract stated that!) and I ended up getting my money back and she her dog back. She got him back, the dog wouldn't eat, moped and grieved over the family he lost, and she sold him to another person AS A PET QUALITY DOG, and had him neutered. I was extremely upset to say the least! I will never, ever, ever again co-own a dog I pay for. PERIOD. Some breeders take things a bit too far and others are realistic in their goals, and expectations of a home. This breeder wanted the dog gone from her home, but wanted, and did, to call all the shots on what took place with him on a daily basis........right down to the food I was allowed to feed him. |
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Texas Belle Austin, TX
 MH Posts:7835


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| 08/10/2009 4:34 PM |
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There is a difference between co-owning a dog and a puppy contract. I have a puppy contract with Ringo and Halo and nothing with Belle. At the end of the day it has not mattered at all. That said when I first met Halo's breeder I did not know her at all, so that puppy contract was one piece of evidence about how much she cared about her dogs and their homes. That was important to me. Since then we have become friends, but we still did a puppy contract on Ringo when I got him. The contract is the standard puppy contract about guaranteeing show quality, free of genetic health issues, right of first refusal if I ever want to get rid of either Ringo or Halo, etc. A co-ownership is just that, two or more people own the same dog. I have seen lots of instances where co-ownerships have ruined friendships and at the very least turned out sour like the story above. I will never co-own a dog, nor will I ever sell a puppy on a co-ownership. Just my personal preference. I will however do some kind of puppy contract, as it tells prospective buyers something about me and it, hopefully, will help weed out the less desirable owners before I ever have to talk to them. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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MOOSE1 Fruitport, MI
 MH Posts:1789


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| 08/11/2009 12:18 PM |
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We have a litter of American Pit Bull Terriers that we will be whelping in February of 2010 and every pup will be sold on a co-ownership no matter what. If the contract is written out correctly it is there to protect not only the person buy the dog but the dog itself. There is no other way I will have it with that litter. But that being said with the stigma behind the breed I think it is best for that breed to be sold on co-ownership basis to make sure they are going to the best homes possible that won't use them for illegal reasons. Now with the GSP I have not decided yet what I will do when/if we breed Phoenix when old enough. It also depends on who is wanting a pup. I like the co-own side of things also as we do a lot in the UKC and this allows for more than just myself to handle a dog. Like the co-owner we have for our APBT is not technically a pro-handler but he is good at handling dogs so I wouldn't be surprised if someday he got paid for it. And it is nice having him on her papers cause he then can show her for me with out it being an issue. So there are pro's and con's to every situation. |
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Rajah-APBT- USUV UMJCH Flying High Rajah-TDI Certified Phoenix-GSP- USJCH UWP GRCH BNJ Shooters Rising Phoenix-CGC Tested Cody- GSP- AKC/CKC CH UKC UWP GRCH Legacyk n Estate Sunray Minor FDJ CGC Tested Tucson-UJJ CH Legacyk FlwrCrk The Old Peublo Rumor-UMJ URO1 GRCH BNJ Rumor Has It-RN RD CGC NA II
www.ezydog.com |
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dgrracing SE Michigan
 SH Posts:59

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| 09/06/2009 9:22 AM |
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From a buyers perspective: The last pup I purchased was the first time I signed a contract.. However as snips pointed out they are not really worth the paper they're printed on... I lived up to my obligations and had the pup N/A tested etc. However the breeder did not live up to her end.. Her pups were supposedly "health guranteed".. However the conditions of the contract we're not defined.. In the end I spent $5000+ on my pup from a genic defect who is now the household pet... The breeder promised a refund... 1 year later nothing.. I offered to accept 50% of the purchase price she agreed and said the "check is in the mail".. As you might surmise, nothing ever arrived, 1000 excuses but no action.. Just a bad breeder.. I looked into sueing her, but I find that Conneticut has a "puppy lemon law" that says the breeder is liable only for the purchase price.. Speaking to an attorney I would cost me $2000 to get my $1000 purchase price returned. The contract is only as good as the integrity of each party.. I'm ok with that as most people are honest and upstanding, it's just the few that are out there causing the problems. I just wish NVHDA or AKC had some kind of mechanism for disputes. Cutting off the cash flow to the puppy mill breeder is the only thing that would root out this bad breeder so as to prevent other unsuspecting buyers from falling prey... Moral of my story is to never buy a pup not knowing the breeder (from a internet, magazine add etc), join a club and learn which breeders are "good breeders"... Then you really won't need a "contract".. Lessoned learned $6000 later... |
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bruns333 Central Ohio
 MH Posts:383


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| 09/07/2009 7:02 AM |
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Sorry to hear about your breeder issue. A couple of thoughts, what sort of genetic defect did the pup have? You could always post on message boards what happened so other folks don't have the same problem. If the breeder said they would give you some money back and didn't then that is really bad. Also remember that many breeders try their best and can't know what will come from every breeding. When you buy a 8 week old puppy you have to know that it may not turn out like you and the breeder thought it would. JMO Matt |
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Where temperament means performance http://silverbulletshorthairs.com/ http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=721 R.I.P Trego 6-1-03 to 10-13-10 http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=941 http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=3626 |
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dgrracing SE Michigan
 SH Posts:59

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| 09/12/2009 7:21 AM |
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Matt, I don't want to be "hi-jacking the thread" but to anwer you questions. Defect: cataracts.. thread is at the bottom of the page. Posting: I've been doing that and getting some feed back from people about the breeder. The more I hear the more infuriated I get... Throughout my life this is truely the one ands only "puppy mill" bad breeder that I've come across. Now back to the original intent of the thread.. I think a written contract is good for if nothing else screening both the breeder and buyer and defining a clear agreement of expectations of both parties. In case of a deault there's little recourse... For example Conneticut has a "puppy lemon law" that limits liability of a breeder up to the purchase price of the dog... The perfect place to setup a puppy mill... |
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BlueMoonIvy Lakewood, CO
Posts:1


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| 12/04/2009 1:55 PM |
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| I always use contract because it weeds out the bad buyers most of the time and it protects me as a breeder. I can write in that if the customer doesn't follow my guidelines I cannot be held responsible and if they decide to sue me for a problem I can go to the clause in the contract. I feel like that didn't make sense but I guess it does. There are stupid people out there who even though they sign the contract they don't follow the guidelines, and of course thier puppy gets ill or dies because they didn't vaccinate or do check ups and missed something they could have prevented. |
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RyanGSP
 MH Posts:428

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| 12/06/2009 7:30 AM |
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Posted By BlueMoonIvy on 12/04/2009 1:55 PM
I can write in that if the customer doesn't follow my guidelines I cannot be held responsible and if they decide to sue me for a problem I can go to the clause in the contract.
I still dont understand why breeders feel they need to decide how a dog is raised
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CL66
 MH Posts:419


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| 12/06/2009 1:21 PM |
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What does co ownership entail? Surely if you pay the purchase price for the dog then it's yours, period? I've probably got the wrong end of the stick though.
Here in the UK, i got a contract with my pup, and one of the stipulations is that he can't be bred before the age of 2. As a result, if i do breed him before then (which i have no intentions of doing) then none of his pups can be KC registered. And this has proved to be true as I went to look at a litter on monday (which i decided not to get as neither parent were hip scored) but his dog was 1yo and while the pups were pedigree, they weren't registered even though the breeder tried.
Is this the same in the US? |
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briarpatch N.J.
 MH Posts:168


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| 12/06/2009 10:57 PM |
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In the US you can breed a dog at any age if it is sold to you with full registration if it is sold with limited registration then you cannot register the pups with the AKC, some breeders will only sell pups with limited registrations until your dog passes hunt tests, or health tests then will lift the limited registration.. I normally do not buy from a breeder with these types of restrictions because what happens if I spend a lot of time and money raising the dog then the breeder who is the only person that can lift the limited registraion dies or something now you have spent a lot of time and money on a dog you will never have the option of breeding and having registerable puppies.. But that is just me.. many people do enter into these types of agreements |
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My Pups:
   
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mountaindogs
 MH Posts:128

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| 12/12/2009 12:18 PM |
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I do use a contract. It's been a struggle for me though. As a BUYER, I do not want too many restrictions, or requirements but do want some protection against health related issues. As a breeder I want to weed out some potential owners, protect the breed from losing hunting ability or developing health problems or temperment troubles like you see in some other breeds, and I want protect my individual puppies. I do not want to require them to do anything besides care for the puppies well, love them, and not breed them without making the best most responsible descisions they can. On my end, I make myself available for advice, able to take a puppy (or dog) back at any time- even an inconvenient one, even a sick or debilitated one, no matter that reason or issue. I will do my best to make it right by them if an issue comes up. How do you put this in a contract? You really can't, but I try. Over the years I have had 3 litters. My contracts have gotten more stringent each time, but still I try to be reasonable. I tell everyone to read and think about the contract. If there is a particular part of it they disagree with, ask me about it. We might come to a compramise and write it differently for them. My goal is not to restrict anyone, just protect the breed and the dog. That's it. Still as to being worth the paper, it really is not. I have had 2 people not follow contract in fairly severe ways. Both are the reasons my contract has become more strict. I wish I could sell with no contract, and even with one, I put alot into trying to find the right owners. Really people are tough to read. I have a dog to a home that I was really hesitant and he has turned into one of the best homes ever. Another to a home that was perfect sounding pet and hunting home, and 2 years later the "family situation" changes and the dog is now a full time kennel dog. It is not an awful life, but just points out that people change, and I can't see the future.
The restrictions I do place at this time are 1)basic proper care 2) all puppy vaccications must be given on a schedule reccomended by whatever vet they choose - I also call or email reminders so they do not get over looked! 3) Breeding dogs must have OFA hips, and CERF eye certification and brucellosis before being bred. This weeds out alot right here, believe it or not. 4) breeding dogs must demonstrate hunting ability though they do not need to be trained or hunted regularly. I would LIKE alot more but to me, that is a minimum. I sell puppies for $200 less if bought on limited registration. This helps cover the spay/ neuter prices. I am debating offering further discounts to those agreeing to test or trial in any venue to help people do more and become more involved, as the breed is so highh energy.5) you'll never surrender the dog to a shelter, rescue, sell to a puppy mill, and you'll give me first option to buy the dog at your asking price whenever/ if ever you are selling.
The things I agree to are 1) always be available to take the dog back no matter what 2) help with advice, training, and problem solving. For basic training (as would be a JH or NAVHDA NA level) and problem solving, I do not charge. It's just my responsibilty. 3) "replace" the puppy or the price of the puppy if there is a health issue. You may keep the dog, (I hope you do but you do not have to,) but must send verification of the problem and the spay neueter. I do not agree to pay vet bills unless you call and discuss with me and we agree on it. I have yet to have this issue at all, but I do hear horror stories from both sides. 4) if you do want advanced training in an area, or short term boarding I offer it at a lower rate, and guarantee the training as well. Meaning if you want a hunting dog and I have bred it and I train it I guaratee it will be a good successful hunter or your money back.
Still I have yet to feel like any paper contract was good enough. |
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Splat Illinois (Northern)
 MH Posts:3130


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| 01/17/2010 6:59 AM |
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For Blitz and the new puppy I signed a contract but it was just something really simple, I am not required to show or do any kind of hunt test with them. When the co-ownership thing was brought up I was thinking that doesn't sound good if I own a dog I want it to be mine, but then when Moose posted about her APBT I thought I can see why you would want to do co0ownership with that breed because of all the bad press about them. I have a friend who has a German Sheppard and I am not sure if she has just a contract or co-owdership but the dog has to have 2 litters, I am assuming bred to one of the breeders males... |
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CathyYak
 MH Posts:963


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| 02/20/2010 10:39 AM |
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I have a contract with a $5000 breach of contract penalty. If someone decides to buy a dog from me they are putting themselves on the line. Of course, my contract also makes me responsible to them for $5000 if I breach my side of it. A good contract protects the buyer and the seller equally. But most of all it protects the dog. My contract has helped me get back two dogs that were purchased by people who were very devious. One was sold to a pet store at five months of age. I got him back as soon as I found out he was there. I showed my contract to the pet store owner. He wanted no part of a lawsuit and handed the dog over to me on the spot. I did sue that jerk anyway and got almost the whole $5000 in a settlement agreement. No one is going to hurt one of my dogs and walk away scot free. The other was considered "deformed" by her buyer and they were going to spay her and keep her in a kennel for the rest of her life. I got her back and she now has a five point major to her credit (yeah, how is that for deformed), and more importantly, a home with two little girls who adore her, and a dad who is doing field work with her as well. Without my contract, I would have had no way to get those dogs back. They are both very happy now, and loved immensely by their owners. Anyone who doesn't like my contract is free to go elsewhere. I have had no problem finding buyers for my pups who are willing to sign it. And as I said, I am as much on the hook with thast contract as the buyer is. That makes the buyer feel very comfortable with what they are buying. |
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Cathy Iacopelli Claddagh Kennels Long Island, New York |
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