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Wagonmaster
SH
Posts:43
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| 02/22/2008 9:18 AM |
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Phyllis, I vote with you. A Dual is a dual is a dual. I just hate it when people show disrespect to the true Dual dogs, and try to call dogs with an MH and a CDX a "dual" or some combination like that. And for the record, I also would like to see a DC win the NFC, or the NGPSA, or the NGPDA. I just hope that is not accomplished by reducing the quality of the stake, which is what seems to be going on with the GSPCA right now, but rather, by have a really nice dog just by God win it.
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Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:731
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| 02/22/2008 9:30 AM |
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Beth,
Don't allow yourself to be sucked into the internet hype of Trial dogs being these huge running, self hunting demons. It is exactly that... BS hype from folks that wish to breed lesser dogs and sell them off as "foot hunters".
I have a Shorthair here that can eat(figuratively speaking) a Pointer off the line and run "lines" with 'em out in the field, as long as he and the Pointer can handle it. He has a number of Juvenile Trial Placements and has only been run in 2 Gundog Stakes since breaking out. ALL OWNER HANDLED! I use that same dog for Grouse hunting in some of the nastiest, thickest and roughest terrain that Western MD and WV have to offer and he will work at a very kindly 50-150 yards, casting out and loopiing back across my front. He has been to Maine and handled just as kindly. He also only requires his 2 Majors for his CH Title. ALSO, ALL OWNER HANDLED! Is he an exception? No, I don't think so, but then I get to see a lot of dogs through here for training, as well as the several hundred I watch every year in Competition.
There is a saying that holds a LOT of weight.... "it's easier to pull a rope in, than to push it out"..... |
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Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
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Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:731
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| 02/22/2008 9:32 AM |
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Posted By Wagonmaster on 02/22/2008 9:18 AM
Phyllis, I vote with you. A Dual is a dual is a dual. I just hate it when people show disrespect to the true Dual dogs, and try to call dogs with an MH and a CDX a "dual" or some combination like that. And for the record, I also would like to see a DC win the NFC, or the NGPSA, or the NGPDA. I just hope that is not accomplished by reducing the quality of the stake, which is what seems to be going on with the GSPCA right now, but rather, by have a really nice dog just by God win it.
AMEN and can I get a Hallelujah?!
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Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
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Wagonmaster
SH
Posts:43
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| 02/22/2008 9:40 AM |
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I wouldn't wait for me and Spot to show up over there on the dark side anytime soon, Bruce. I am not the world's biggest fan of shows. But a dog that wins an honest FC, is an FC just like my dogs are, IMO. |
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singltrak
Las Cruces, NM
MH
Posts:1149
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Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:731
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| 02/22/2008 9:52 AM |
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I know your feelings John, but I gotta say that if you did, I'd have to spring for a bottle of that fancy stuff you like!
You'd need it after all the pictures I'd take of you jogging around the Ring with Spot!
Of course, with peanuts as well! ;-) |
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Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
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Dave Quindt
SH
Posts:41
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| 02/22/2008 12:58 PM |
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Wagonmaster wrote:
"And for the record, I also would like to see a DC win the NFC, or the NGPSA, or the NGPDA. "
John,
We saw exactly that when Rabidou won the NGSPA AA with Rocky (DC Nat Ch Cherry Creek Rocky) in 2001. Heck, he won it as a wild bird trial, as that was the year it was held in Timber Lake, SD.
Now, the fact that Rocky was sterile didn't help the "dual cause" much.
We've had a number of duals win one of our nationals, but I don't know of a dual to win the NSS. Wonder why that is?
"I just hope that is not accomplished by reducing the quality of the stake, which is what seems to be going on with the GSPCA right now, but rather, by have a really nice dog just by God win it. "
Care to explain that comment?
JMO,
Dave
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Wagonmaster
SH
Posts:43
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| 02/22/2008 1:16 PM |
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| Naw David. You can have Dennis explain it. I am guessing he already has. |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4450
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| 02/22/2008 2:39 PM |
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http://www.canamdk.org/history-deutsch-kurzhaar.php
I know the discussion has taken a bit of a turn but this site offers a good explaination of the German ideals.
Francine |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Dave Quindt
SH
Posts:41
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| 02/22/2008 2:44 PM |
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Ah, understand now.
Read too much into your comment.
DQ |
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MOOSE1
Fruitport, MI
MH
Posts:1789
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| 02/22/2008 2:45 PM |
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| Thanks for the explenations everyone. I appreciate it! I am excited to try and watch some FT and HT this year and then start working on them myself with my dogs! |
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Rajah-APBT- USUV UMJCH Flying High Rajah-TDI Certified
Phoenix-GSP- USJCH UWP GRCH BNJ Shooters Rising Phoenix-CGC Tested
Cody- GSP- AKC/CKC CH UKC UWP GRCH Legacyk n Estate Sunray Minor FDJ CGC Tested
Tucson-UJJ CH Legacyk FlwrCrk The Old Peublo
Rumor-UMJ URO1 GRCH BNJ Rumor Has It-RN RD CGC NA II
www.ezydog.com |
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RyanGSP
MH
Posts:430
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| 02/22/2008 3:06 PM |
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Thats the only way to do it. Get out there and watch or even better enter your dog and experience it for yourself.
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Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:731
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| 02/22/2008 10:27 PM |
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Posted By Dave Quindt on 02/22/2008 12:58 PM
Wagonmaster wrote:
"And for the record, I also would like to see a DC win the NFC, or the NGPSA, or the NGPDA. "
John,
We saw exactly that when Rabidou won the NGSPA AA with Rocky (DC Nat Ch Cherry Creek Rocky) in 2001. Heck, he won it as a wild bird trial, as that was the year it was held in Timber Lake, SD.
Now, the fact that Rocky was sterile didn't help the "dual cause" much.
We've had a number of duals win one of our nationals, but I don't know of a dual to win the NSS. Wonder why that is?
"I just hope that is not accomplished by reducing the quality of the stake, which is what seems to be going on with the GSPCA right now, but rather, by have a really nice dog just by God win it. "
Care to explain that comment?
JMO,
Dave
I'm guessing this was meant as a rhetorical question Dave, but it really got me too thinking about "WHY NOT?
My guess is, that the one "fault" typical to a Dual Quality Shorthair is that as said before, they tend to be very good to great at one event and only good to passable at the other. It seems in my short tenure with GSP's, many to most of the Duals out there, are coming from predominantly Performance based Kennels whose focus is a top quality Performance/hunting dog, not the "Show Kennels". So ultimately, these dogs can tend to go out there and really get it done in the Field, yet do not meet up to the "High Standards" of the Conformation Ring, where a dog must often be over angulated, excessively deep chested and much heavier built with smoooooth lines that lack the muscle definition of a well conditioned Shorthair that is really worked. So while it is entirely plausible for a Dual to have the fire, drive and build to go out and win a National Trial, it may not be even possible for that same Performance Shorthair to have the "proper Conformation" to impress a Show Judge that has little to no experience with the structure required to do the job it was bred for and win BOB at the NSS.
Maybe I'm off base, but it does seem that most of the Duals of recent history are heavily Performance based, to which I personally am thankful for. I like hunting Grouse more than running around a Ring!!
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Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
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Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:731
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| 02/22/2008 10:31 PM |
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Beth/Moose,
You will find the Trial dogs are much more mannerly than many would have you believe. Be prepared to see some of the very best dogs handle as though they were on a string at several hundred yards. Since you like to ride horses as well..... Does it get any better than combining the love for riding horses AND running dogs together?!?! |
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Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4450
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| 02/23/2008 2:56 PM |
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AHGSP,
these dogs that you are speaking about, are they run by pros?
I admitt to not seeing many FT dogs.But, I am under the impression that it takes a knowledgeable and capable person to handle these dogs the way you say.
Is there any merit to how I feel?
Francine
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:731
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| 02/23/2008 5:01 PM |
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Pixie,
Not necessarily; some are, some are not and some may be Pro trained and Amateur handled.
I don't believe it takes some "Magical skill" to train a dog and when it comes right down to it, you have to train the dog to handle at 20'(check cord length fyi) before you can ever hope to handle it beyond that. If your capable of training the dog to handle at 20', then you are capable to train a dog to handle at extended distances. The key is to not take any independence out of the dog in the process and that takes time to not train, but "DEVELOP". |
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Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
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Leah
Posts:8
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| 02/23/2008 6:04 PM |
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sorry if this is a little off-subject, but just bringing up a specific point in the form follows function discussion...
do toplines matter in the feild? I can see angulation and proportions making a huge difference, but so much emphasis is put on having a dead level topline in shows.
I see that a lot of hunting line dogs don't have this, and since form follows function, doesn't this mean that toplines don't really matter as much as some people like to think they do?
sorry if I didn't make sense, I don't know if I worded that right.
I just feel like if level toplines were necessary for dogs to hunt, then more FT dogs would have them?
has anyone noticed that dogs with roached backs get tired more easily, aren't as agile, get injured, etc? |
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RyanGSP
MH
Posts:430
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| 02/23/2008 6:26 PM |
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| Leah every "show" person I have talked to want a slight downward slope to the back or "show" dogs I have seen has had a slight slope towards the rump |
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Leah
Posts:8
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| 02/23/2008 7:24 PM |
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| oh sorry, I don't mean level, I should have said straight. straight but not level. |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4450
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| 02/24/2008 7:52 AM |
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Leah,
versatile dogs need a strong topline.FT dogs only run,point and maybe retrieve.
Over angulation is a downfall as well.
Francine
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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